a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

[g-p]

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g-p,

I think given the read given, raising turn would be a mistake. I would not mind at all calling the turn and calling like 99% of river cards vs someone who is so likely to vbet worse or bluff off chips.


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you dont really say why.

since we has such a huge range here, we should be shoving some weak hands sometimes, which means we should also be able to show up with a flush here sometimes. a % of the time we should raise turn definitely.

[Ansky]

Do you think PA will think we are shoving light on the turn?

I would expect him to think our hand is at the bottom of our valueshoving range on the turn.

[g-p]

krantz said hes "not been hitting any good bluff catchers or found many good spots to slowplay to induce bluffs"

so im guessing he hasn't shoved any turns really thin (which maybe he should consider)

[jlocdog]

"Simple: PA is not a spew monkey bluff tard. U have a bluff catcher by the river, so fold. Only thing he's vbetting is the full house or maybe better flush."

"River:AcTx (as a bluff), x6, TT, 44, QJc+"

"Obv the math against this range makes it a call vs the logic of the hand. But I think u need to call here for metagame."

Hmmmm.....I guess now I must do the obligatory SAALLLAAAAAZZZZZZAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRR

[cowpig]

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I think a flop 3bet is a massive mistake, for a couple reasons. It might be ok if the board was like 742 w/ 2 clubs , but the fact that the board is paired, as well as the fact that we are 80k deep- not 60k or 40k makes 3betting a real big mistake. I doubt you get a fold from bigish hands, and you probably get played back at w/ a lot of bigger draws.


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My problem with calling is that we haven't done anything to define his range since he basically check-raises everything, and overcards still have a ton of equity. I guess we can shove turn on a blank, but if he checks are we going to fire? I feel like calling is going to result in him showing down A high or something.

[Ansky]

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I think a flop 3bet is a massive mistake, for a couple reasons. It might be ok if the board was like 742 w/ 2 clubs , but the fact that the board is paired, as well as the fact that we are 80k deep- not 60k or 40k makes 3betting a real big mistake. I doubt you get a fold from bigish hands, and you probably get played back at w/ a lot of bigger draws.


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My problem with calling is that we haven't done anything to define his range since he basically check-raises everything, and overcards still have a ton of equity. I guess we can shove turn on a blank, but if he checks are we going to fire? I feel like calling is going to result in him showing down A high or something.

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So? I'd rather 3bet with total air here. What are you doing if 4 bet?

[NLSoldier]

Given that he CRs the flop a LOT and follows through on the turn a LOT, his range before he river bet is obviously quite wide. So now he is looking at that river and having to decide if its a good card for him to fire his final barrell at. Obv its very "level" dependant but Im thinking that he knows that river card looks gross to most of our range, so hes prob following through on his bluffs with a high frequency and thus we need to call here.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

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I think a flop 3bet is a massive mistake, for a couple reasons. It might be ok if the board was like 742 w/ 2 clubs , but the fact that the board is paired, as well as the fact that we are 80k deep- not 60k or 40k makes 3betting a real big mistake. I doubt you get a fold from bigish hands, and you probably get played back at w/ a lot of bigger draws.


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My problem with calling is that we haven't done anything to define his range since he basically check-raises everything, and overcards still have a ton of equity. I guess we can shove turn on a blank, but if he checks are we going to fire? I feel like calling is going to result in him showing down A high or something.

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So? I'd rather 3bet with total air here. What are you doing if 4 bet?

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seriously dude, 3-betting this flop is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

[cowpig]

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I think a flop 3bet is a massive mistake, for a couple reasons. It might be ok if the board was like 742 w/ 2 clubs , but the fact that the board is paired, as well as the fact that we are 80k deep- not 60k or 40k makes 3betting a real big mistake. I doubt you get a fold from bigish hands, and you probably get played back at w/ a lot of bigger draws.


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My problem with calling is that we haven't done anything to define his range since he basically check-raises everything, and overcards still have a ton of equity. I guess we can shove turn on a blank, but if he checks are we going to fire? I feel like calling is going to result in him showing down A high or something.

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So? I'd rather 3bet with total air here. What are you doing if 4 bet?

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obviously calling, and while that's a bad result in a vacuum, it has some pretty solid benefits:

a) we get a good idea of the kinds of hands he's willing to stack off with on this flop, and he's going to respond to flop 3bets

b) he sees us take a completely weird line

I think these benefits + making him fold a jillion hands with 40% equity make a 3bet pretty nice.

[MichaelBolton777]

would you mind elaborating on why you think a flop 3 bet is such a big mistake? why does it make such a difference that stacks are 200bb instead of 100 or 150? and if he is often checkraising the flop w/ air, wont the 3 bet sometimes get him to fold air that is better than 8 high?