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  #1  
Old 05-07-2007, 05:49 PM
CrushinFelt CrushinFelt is offline
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Default Got a little lost

Kind of a strange hand, no reads other than they probably suck and are quite passive. I think they need at least AJ+ to call the river bet and that is pushing it a bit. Blind has 2 buy-ins, I have 2 buy-ins, MP has 1 buy-in

Bunch of limpers, Hero pots the button with
Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Two callers (one in the blind and one in MP) see a flop:
J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero pots (both call)

Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check, check, check

River 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (pot = one buy-in)
Hero pots ...

As I said earlier they are pretty passive but I think they bet a set on the turn because there's no way I check AA on that board. Should I have just shoved the turn as well?
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  #2  
Old 05-07-2007, 08:03 PM
iggymcfly iggymcfly is offline
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Default Re: Got a little lost

This hand makes no sense. You say you pot the button, but then from the description, it looks like you're first to act. Do you think they're weak because it checked to you on the river or were you first to act all along in the SB?
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  #3  
Old 05-07-2007, 08:13 PM
TrainHardDieHard TrainHardDieHard is offline
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Default Re: Got a little lost

[ QUOTE ]
Kind of a strange hand, no reads other than they probably suck and are quite passive. I think they need at least AJ+ to call the river bet and that is pushing it a bit. Blind has 2 buy-ins, I have 2 buy-ins, MP has 1 buy-in

Bunch of limpers, Hero pots the button with
Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Two callers (one in the blind and one in MP) see a flop:
J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero pots (both call)

Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check, check, check

River 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (pot = one buy-in)
Hero pots ...

As I said earlier they are pretty passive but I think they bet a set on the turn because there's no way I check AA on that board. Should I have just shoved the turn as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd help to know what the buy in was. As played, I don't know why you're bluffing the river here, what hand are u trying to represent by potting the flop, checking a spade 2 on the turn, and then repotting an innocuous 6 on the river? This hand looks EXACTLY what it is - an attempt to win the pot on the river after missing all the draws you had on the flop. If you're opponents are any good at all, they'd look you up here a ton of times unless for some reason you have a table image that you always check the turn.
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  #4  
Old 05-07-2007, 08:47 PM
CrushinFelt CrushinFelt is offline
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Default Re: Got a little lost

[ QUOTE ]
This hand makes no sense. You say you pot the button, but then from the description, it looks like you're first to act. Do you think they're weak because it checked to you on the river or were you first to act all along in the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Erp. The river should be "checked to hero who pots"
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  #5  
Old 05-07-2007, 09:39 PM
CrushinFelt CrushinFelt is offline
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Default Re: Got a little lost

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kind of a strange hand, no reads other than they probably suck and are quite passive. I think they need at least AJ+ to call the river bet and that is pushing it a bit. Blind has 2 buy-ins, I have 2 buy-ins, MP has 1 buy-in

Bunch of limpers, Hero pots the button with
Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Two callers (one in the blind and one in MP) see a flop:
J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero pots (both call)

Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check, check, check

River 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (pot = one buy-in)
Hero pots ...

As I said earlier they are pretty passive but I think they bet a set on the turn because there's no way I check AA on that board. Should I have just shoved the turn as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd help to know what the buy in was. As played, I don't know why you're bluffing the river here, what hand are u trying to represent by potting the flop, checking a spade 2 on the turn, and then repotting an innocuous 6 on the river? This hand looks EXACTLY what it is - an attempt to win the pot on the river after missing all the draws you had on the flop. If you're opponents are any good at all, they'd look you up here a ton of times unless for some reason you have a table image that you always check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. But their calling range on the river is much, much smaller than it is on the flop because no draws got there. None. So even if they do put me on next to nothing, how light can they really call? This isn't like hold 'em where you can call with 4th pair on the river if someone does something blatant like this because the last bet is 100 bbs and I could have a wide range of made/combo hands.
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  #6  
Old 05-07-2007, 09:43 PM
Silent A Silent A is offline
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Default Re: Got a little lost

[ QUOTE ]
It'd help to know what the buy in was.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 players called on the flop. Total pot = 1 buy-in, so each has put in about 1/3 of a buy-in. So Hero and Blind has 1 and 2/3 buyins left and MP has 2/3 buy in. If there were four limpers before Hero's pre-flop raise this works out to 100 BB buyins.

[ QUOTE ]
As played, I don't know why you're bluffing the river here, what hand are u trying to represent by potting the flop, checking a spade 2 on the turn, and then repotting an innocuous 6 on the river? This hand looks EXACTLY what it is - an attempt to win the pot on the river after missing all the draws you had on the flop. If you're opponents are any good at all, they'd look you up here a ton of times unless for some reason you have a table image that you always check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pre-flop raise worked against you here because it didn't leave you with enough to bet the turn and the river. But that's OK, just accept it and move on. You got your money in with good equity.
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  #7  
Old 05-07-2007, 09:59 PM
Silent A Silent A is offline
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Default Re: Got a little lost

[ QUOTE ]
You're right. But their calling range on the river is much, much smaller than it is on the flop because no draws got there. None. So even if they do put me on next to nothing, how light can they really call? This isn't like hold 'em where you can call with 4th pair on the river if someone does something blatant like this because the last bet is 100 bbs and I could have a wide range of made/combo hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still, you have to bluff them both. I think you need to have reason to believe they're both fairly nitty (or, multi-tabling and not paying 100% attention). It'll also help if your image is somewhat rockish.

I think you stand to be called by hands as low as AK if your opponents are attentive. I know that if I was in MP with that hand I'd strongly suspect I had the best hand. Whether or not I would actually call is another matter, primarily since at the stakes I play most players wouldn't try to bluff in your spot.

What were the stakes in this hand, btw?
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  #8  
Old 05-07-2007, 11:12 PM
CrushinFelt CrushinFelt is offline
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Default Re: Got a little lost

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're right. But their calling range on the river is much, much smaller than it is on the flop because no draws got there. None. So even if they do put me on next to nothing, how light can they really call? This isn't like hold 'em where you can call with 4th pair on the river if someone does something blatant like this because the last bet is 100 bbs and I could have a wide range of made/combo hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still, you have to bluff them both. I think you need to have reason to believe they're both fairly nitty (or, multi-tabling and not paying 100% attention). It'll also help if your image is somewhat rockish.

I think you stand to be called by hands as low as AK if your opponents are attentive. I know that if I was in MP with that hand I'd strongly suspect I had the best hand. Whether or not I would actually call is another matter, primarily since at the stakes I play most players wouldn't try to bluff in your spot.

What were the stakes in this hand, btw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think AK could be included in the calling range for the MP guy because he only has about 40 or 50 bbs left and would be getting 3:1. This was PLO 50 at a very passive Bodog table (been playing there because I have been sportsbetting a good bit lately but don't have enough on there to play PLO100 or 200). But there's no way the guy with 100bbs calls with AK imo. I think AQ, Q9, A9 are more at the bottom of his range (maybe a differnt two pair if he picked them up on the turn or river).

I thought this hand was interesting because of how deep it was and because of what a calling range might typically be on the river.

If you were the EP guy could you fire on that river? I clearly don't have a made hand but could definitely have a combo/two pair hand which could easily be at the bottom of my calling range.
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  #9  
Old 05-08-2007, 03:37 AM
Silent A Silent A is offline
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Default Re: Got a little lost

[ QUOTE ]
If you were the EP guy could you fire on that river? I clearly don't have a made hand but could definitely have a combo/two pair hand which could easily be at the bottom of my calling range.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was thinking real clearly, wasn't distracted by other tables, and considered you a strong enough player to bluff here, then yes. It's pretty clear, if you think about it, that MP can't overcall with anything he wouldn't have bet already (at least if he's a typical PLO 50 player). Problem is, there are precious few hands with AK that I would call that flop with from EP.

The more I think of it, the more I think you can pull a bluff off here assuming you're confident that your opponents wouldn't be doing silly things like calling you down with top and bottom pair. I've been in positions like yours, but "deeper" (limped pot, so I had enough to bet turn and river) only to be called down by something like 2nd pair (and a gutshot).

You really want to be sure that neither EP or MP is a bored HE player.
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  #10  
Old 05-08-2007, 10:20 PM
christyirish christyirish is offline
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Default Re: Got a little lost

Is mine even worse than yours? I find these situations come up a bit and I think they can be worth a bet.

The blind will talk himself out of calling, or not pay enough attention, alot of the time. (The risk of the overcall, the chance that you lashed at the flop but rivered a miserable set,did he or the MP raise preflop?, those kind of concerns or lack of attention)

and the MP only has half a stack - your getting 2-1 on him and he might donk the river if he had aj (or push the flop/turn)

Dont get me wrong, your hand smells, in fact stinks of what it is, and of course you feel pretty stupid when the blind calls down with aces and x. If they look u up with a pair more power to them

O ye, id definetly bet the turn if that 2 wasnt a spade/club
and id probably still bet the turn, get called by the MP and lose an extra half buy in
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