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Old 04-10-2007, 02:23 PM
fraac fraac is offline
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Default relative playability of starting hands, other things being equal?

(Repost from SSNL.)

Restricted to current most popular game conditions: online, no-limit holdem, 6max, small-mid stakes. Like SC rankings but non-computable, so compiled from Pokertracker databases of good players. Much useful information would be encoded in such a ranking list, though I grant it seems unscientific, ephemeral and instinctively scoffworthy. For example, it seems reasonable that a player would know call/raise ratios for the different 2-card hand classes, know adjustments for position, stack sizes, opponents, know everything except the initial playability of his hand.

As I wrote in the first topic, attempting and failing to pique curiosity, 72o is only the worst starting hand if the results say it is.

Has anyone tried this?
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Old 04-10-2007, 04:58 PM
Gonso Gonso is offline
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Default Re: relative playability of starting hands, other things being equal?

In large databases you'd probably find the rankings for such a list would vary from player to player (even among successful players). A wild guess makes me think that the very best and worst hands would generally be similar, but the middle hands would vary the most.

You have all of these different variables: play style, player skill levels, full ring/6-max/heads up, limits, etc. - you specified a couple of these but it breaks down further than that. Some 6-max games play differently than others. KJs is a money card for some players in some games, but a big loser in others. Also if you bluff certain hands with a regular frequency, you might tend to lose more with them in exchange for a better return on your stronger hands - so a weak return or loss on a specific hand might be paying dividends elsewhere.

Edit: You could purchase a couple databases, though I haven't done that myself. I'm sure that would get you the kind of data you're looking for.
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Old 04-10-2007, 05:39 PM
cdlarmore cdlarmore is offline
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Default Re: relative playability of starting hands, other things being equal?

People have done all this work for you, check out a hand equity chart. I can certainly tell you after 200k hands in my database, AA is the highest win % and 72o is the lowest win %...odds seem to have even out after about 120k hands, and my hand win ratio looks like a hand equity chart at this point in time.

As you progress, this becomes less important, and deciding to open up or close your play range baased on villan ability and reads becomes more important (iso raises and such)
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:14 PM
Gonso Gonso is offline
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Default Re: relative playability of starting hands, other things being equal?

[ QUOTE ]
AA is the highest win % and 72o is the lowest win %

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure but I think he's talking more in terms of profitability/EV that just win %, that really doesn't tell you enough since you could be losing money with a hand that has a winning %.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:31 PM
cdlarmore cdlarmore is offline
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Default Re: relative playability of starting hands, other things being equal?

gottcha...AA is my most profitable hand, kk 2nd and so on. It does vary around the midpoint of A9 and K9 type hands
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Old 04-11-2007, 12:38 AM
fraac fraac is offline
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Default Re: relative playability of starting hands, other things being equal?

[ QUOTE ]
In large databases you'd probably find the rankings for such a list would vary from player to player (even among successful players). A wild guess makes me think that the very best and worst hands would generally be similar, but the middle hands would vary the most.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on how each player plays the different hand classes, yes. So I'm not sure that averaging results from more than one player would yield anything meaningful. However, finding a few great players, getting their starting hand EVs combined with their hand class call/raise ratios (when I say this does it make sense? I'm guessing that the way someone plays low pairs or suited aces, for example, is pretty fixed over a broad set of game conditions (such as those specified in the OP)), and doing what the neurolinguistic crowd call 'modelling' them may be useful indeed.
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Old 04-11-2007, 10:54 AM
KipBond KipBond is offline
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Default Re: relative playability of starting hands, other things being equal?

I think you're looking for something like this:
http://www.pokerroom.com/poker/poker...ortOrder=value

It's about what you would expect, I think. If you see anything very interesting there, please let me know. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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