AK hand played against a 2+2er (LIMCASH)

[TheFoxNL]

i might be a total fish here but why did you fold here ?
isnt he just using his button position
specially like you said he might think ur playing lag

[mjkidd]

I think the river 3-bet is thin. He's representing a wierdly played kings up with his 4-bet (K2 makes the most sense here), but getting 14-1 I think you have to call.

I think the real question in the hand is what range you put him on when he pops you on the river?

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the river 3-bet is thin. He's representing a wierdly played kings up with his 4-bet (K2 makes the most sense here), but getting 14-1 I think you have to call.

I think the real question in the hand is what range you put him on when he pops you on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree villian is representing kings up with this raise, but I just don't see how he has it enough that I don't have a threebet here.

The thing is the only hand in his range that I don't beat is K2 or some soert of weird slowplay (and maybe J9). The flop is pretty coordinated so I would expect him to raise strong hands right away or on a safe turn , so I think we can discount really big hands (set, flopped two pair ect).

Given that he didn't raise me at any point in the hand, I think he alomst never has K7 or K8 or KT as all of these raise either the flop or the turn. So the hands that beat me are K2, which has to be somewhat discounted because villian will raise with a 2 some percentage of the time, and J9, which villian will raise some percentage of the time on the flop and some, larger, percentage on the turn.

I think villians play looks a lot more like a single pair of kings than anything else: KQ, KJ, KT, K9 all play this way up until the 4bet.

Once I threebet, my range is very narrow and powerful. When a reasonable player caps, it seems he can beat AK always, but still I'm not sure about the river fold, which is why I posted it. I'm pretty sure its mathematically a very close decision; if i'm getting 10-1 here, I think its an easy, easy fold, but in terms of metagame its probably better to just call.

[bbbushu]

jjh,

i think we need to add in 22, 78, 8T and 7T to the range, here. i agree that a lot of times big hands spring the trap on the turn but its not nonsense to wait until the river comes and the board isn't a disaster to start putting in raises. the board has a decent amount of draws, for sure, and i think your thought process is good, but it seems kind of self-destructive to pursue extra value out of a pair hand with this kind of zeal [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

i don't know how he was playing - if this was the only time he four-bet on a big bet street then yeah you're probably beat. if he did this a lot but always had a strong hand when you called, there might be more leeway to his range that let's you call.

as a general rule, though, i don't think it's a good idea to go four-bets on the river with one pair against a solid, thinking opponent.

also, after some more thinking, i feel that a reasonable villain will value bet almost any pair on the river if we check, which is why i still would rather check/raise and call a three-bet on the end.

i might sanity call, though, to be honest. i dunno, tough spot.

bbbushu

[kapw7]

It's good.
Personally I call this during the game b/c I don't trust my reads and analysis 100% under the pressure of a HU battle and I wouldn't risk making a big mistake by folding b/c there was a small detail that I missed.

Also: I think by not 3-betting the river we give up value. Checking is bad unless you think that you need to put a c-r for mixing up.

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
jjh,

i think we need to add in 22, 78, 8T and 7T to the range, here. i agree that a lot of times big hands spring the trap on the turn but its not nonsense to wait until the river comes and the board isn't a disaster to start putting in raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right in that my range doesn't account for all the possible hands that he could have in this spot (my range is too narrow), but as you've alluded to in your analysis, all the holdings that beat me have to be discounted to some degree or another.

[WutRUTryin2Hit]

[ QUOTE ]
jjh,

i think we need to add in 22, 78, 8T and 7T to the range, here. i agree that a lot of times big hands spring the trap on the turn but its not nonsense to wait until the river comes and the board isn't a disaster to start putting in raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, isn't that kind of backwards, to wait till the draws all miss on the river to start putting in bets? I think any hand better than 2 pair on the turn raises this turn alllll the time in LHE. Maybe in NL you can slowplay the turn here and then extract fully on the river since you've disguised your hand, but I think flat-calling with a strong hand on this turn is pretty bad and just throwing away value, and I think his range is much closer to kings up.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]
but I think flat-calling with a strong hand on this turn is pretty bad and just throwing away value, and I think his range is much closer to kings up.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not bad. It's a good play to mix up against an agressive opponent who will value bet the river very thin. This way when you raise the river you can have both 77 and 4h5h in your range.

[Nfinity]

You should have just called his initial raise on the River.

Think about it, if he was playing particularly laggy enough to Raise/Cap a 1 pair hand on this River, he would have found a raise somewhere on the other streets as a semi-bluff, particularly the Flop.

Usually the C/C/Raise line is used with a particulary strong hand to gain maximum value against an aggressive, but wary opponent.

3-betting was a mistake, and 3-betting with the intention of folding to a Cap is a nightmare mistake.

In these huge pots against likely tricky players, choose the option that will get you to showdown. That means check-calling a lot of mediocre hands, and not doing stuff like this.

The pot is already 9BBs when he raises you, is missing an extra valuebet going to hurt you? Especially if getting capped means you have to fold in a 13BB pot?

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]

Think about it, if he was playing particularly laggy enough to Raise/Cap a 1 pair hand on this River, he would have found a raise somewhere on the other streets as a semi-bluff, particularly the Flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he's laggy enough to cap the river with less than one pair, which is why i folded to the cap. I don't think you understand the gulf between what his river raise means and what his cap means.

[ QUOTE ]


Usually the C/C/Raise line is used with a particulary strong hand to gain maximum value against an aggressive, but wary opponent.



[/ QUOTE ]

Usually a good villian will use this line on non-drawy boards with a very strong hand. This flop is draw heavy. I'm not saying he never has a hand like a set here because this villian is certainly good enough to balance his range, but that kind of hand has to be discounted given the flop texture. On this kind of board its more likely that he has some sort of weak SD type hand and that the king improved him on the end (king high and a pair of 2s both qualify as weak SD type hands).



[ QUOTE ]

That means check-calling a lot of mediocre hands, and not doing stuff like this.


[/ QUOTE ]
TPTK is not a mediocre hand, especially HU.

[ QUOTE ]

The pot is already 9BBs when he raises you, is missing an extra valuebet going to hurt you?



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it does hurt me. It is important to valuebet relentlessly in large pots, especially against good players.