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#11
06-21-2006, 09:54 PM
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Re: Jameser <3 \'s porn
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I raise the flop. IMO MP's ludicrous aggression factor means we could easily be facing middle pair, we want UTG to fold, and the pot is already large. If UTG 3-bets or cold calls we're unhappy (fold to 3-bet, most likely fold turn UI), but if he folds we've isolated aggro guy. [/ QUOTE ] The problem is that UTG is 13/9/3.09/605 and raised preflop, then called 2 cold back to him when it was capped. His call isn't saying "Well, im already in the pot for 2 bets so why not toss in 2 more", but rather, "I have a premium hand that is worth putting in 4 bets PF". Another problem is that the strength of his hand is pretty vague. MP1's hand strength is pretty clear since he 3bet a raiser, and hero's is even more defined since he coldcapped. But MP1 mearly raised preflop and then called a cap. We know he is strong, but just not how strong. Also, I think my position relative to the other 2 villans sucks. It may, in fact, be the worst case scenario position-wise since I am pinned between a LAG and a tight, overly aggressive player. If MP1 had any sort of hand, he would likely c/r the flop given the preflop action and his aggression factor. This was the main factor that crossed my mind when considering what my action should be... Haupt_234 [/ QUOTE ] I didn't pay as much attention to UTG as I should have... to this point I think he's stronger than MP. you're right on about MP imo, his flop donk screams weakness. ok, maybe he doesn't have 66 but he still isn't better than 99 or TT. still, i like my position here because UTG is so aggressive. he's not all that tricky. as you said, MP thinks he's slick, but we can deal with him later. if UTG does anything other than fold, our interest in this hand has ended, but he can and will find a fold here. MP will fold to our raise or turn bet and we take it down. if we get coldcalled by utg, then we proceed verrrry carefully. it all depends on what card falls next. another poster half-jokingly said that he doesn't want to fold and calling sucks, so you raise and lose more later. well, I feel the same way (minus the losing more part [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I can't find a fold yet and calling is terrible. reverse domination is a bigger concern to me than mp's hand range. if UTG cold calls at worst he has AK i think. even if we do improve on the turn one of our opponents holding AA, KK, QQ, AK or AQ seems to be a distinct possibility. we're not up against <=JJ for both villains here all that often. still... i can't fold the flop. I can imagine circumstances where cap/fold would be the line, but not here. UTG's ability to fold and the size of the pot are key here I think. 
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#12
06-21-2006, 10:57 PM
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Re: Jameser <3 \'s porn
honestly i think i would fold and continue multiporning. maybe peel, but it is soooo likely to get raised behind us our odds are often going to be half(at best)what they appear to be.
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#13
06-21-2006, 11:32 PM
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Re: Jameser <3 \'s porn
[ QUOTE ]
maybe peel, but it is soooo likely to get raised behind us our odds are often going to be half(at best)what they appear to be. [/ QUOTE ] Yea, add in the fact that we may every well hit an ace or king and still be behind and I hate the situation. Haupt_234
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#14
06-21-2006, 11:33 PM
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Results
I ended up folding on the flop when MP1 bet out. UTG+2 then checkraised and the flop ended up being capped.
In the end, UTG+2 showed QQ for a flopped set of queens and MP1 showed TT for a turned set of tens. Haupt_234
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#16
06-22-2006, 12:42 AM
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Re: Jameser <3 \'s porn
[ QUOTE ]
One of the problems you have to consider when counting outs is that you have the potential to hit an ace or king and still be behind, losing more bets. Reverse implied odds factor in greatly here. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not putting much more in the pot after my raise on the flop. I'm basically folding to a threebet, and a call from UTG makes me unhappy. Action on the turn makes it a fold. Basically my raise is attempting to parlay into a chance at this big pot. I think because I'm so weak I can limit the reverse implied odds against me. It seems pretty marginal against that tight range, but add a few hands that very agressive MP might hold and take a shot at the pot with when checked to him on the flop and it looks a lot better. -Tim
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#17
06-22-2006, 07:52 AM
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Re: Jameser <3 \'s porn
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not putting much more in the pot after my raise on the flop. I'm basically folding to a threebet, and a call from UTG makes me unhappy. Action on the turn makes it a fold. Basically my raise is attempting to parlay into a chance at this big pot. I think because I'm so weak I can limit the reverse implied odds against me. It seems pretty marginal against that tight range, but add a few hands that very agressive MP might hold and take a shot at the pot with when checked to him on the flop and it looks a lot better. [/ QUOTE ] So you're not betting/raising if you hit an ace or king on the turn? Then what is the point of continuing the hand? Haupt_234
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#18
06-22-2006, 08:40 AM
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Re: Jameser <3 \'s porn
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He likes his hand a lot. Donking into a PF capper = I fold unless I have a good read. We can't even be sure we have live cards here. [/ QUOTE ] this is not a donk bet. they did not have the option to raise anymore pf, so consider the flop bet more as a continuation of the pf action. this is generally a very strong move, and should be respected w/o any kind of draw beyond top pair.
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#19
06-22-2006, 09:34 AM
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Re: Jameser <3 \'s porn
[ QUOTE ]
So you're not betting/raising if you hit an ace or king on the turn? Then what is the point of continuing the hand? [/ QUOTE ] 14.40 small bets? I'm not really arguing too hard for this, but I think this could be a situation where you're losing less by making the raise and checking through the turn than you do by folding, and certainly by calling. -Tim
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#20
06-22-2006, 09:36 AM
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Re: Jameser <3 \'s porn
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So you're not betting/raising if you hit an ace or king on the turn? Then what is the point of continuing the hand? [/ QUOTE ] 14.40 small bets? I'm not really arguing too hard for this, but I think this could be a situation where you're losing less by making the raise and checking through the turn than you do by folding, and certainly by calling. -Tim [/ QUOTE ] ?. in your estimation what is hero giving up equity-wise by just folding the flop.
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