Two unconventional folds 5/10

SukitTrebek · #1 06-06-2006, 12:18 AM

A couple interesting hands in which there was an argument for folding an overpair.

I folded one of these on the turn, I changed the hh for the post.

What do you think, both good folds using good hand reading? Both awful folds? Either way, which one would you be more inclined to fold.

FWIW, MHIG in one hand and MHING in the other.

SB is 15/5/1.4 over 230 hands
UTG is 23/9/2.3 over 40 hands

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, MP3 folds, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Villain is 21/7/0.9 over 300 hands

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, CO calls $8.50 (All-In), 3 folds, UTG+2 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (11.10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.55 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

JacksonTens · #2 06-06-2006, 12:29 AM

There is no way you can fold Hand 2 the way you played it. No way, unless your a ninja....

and your not.

Hand 1. I wouldn't fold without a read. He could be going crazy with a Pair+draw, and got despo on the river.

JT

marrek · #3 06-06-2006, 01:59 AM

Hand 1, folding the turn is fine. With the SB's stats, he's not fooling around and has you beat. A 1.4 doesn't cap the flop on a draw. Also, i've noticed the tight a palyer is pre-flop, the tighter he *Usually * is post flop at this level.

Hand 2, is probably close either way, you played it weak and should have made a play for the pot on the flop or turn. If you're not willing raise, then you shouldn't be calling. Does this player cap AKs? what about TT? If not, get out, if he might, raise somewhere.

mark

XmasXmas · #4 06-06-2006, 05:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1. I wouldn't fold without a read. He could be going crazy with a Pair+draw, and got despo on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i really doubt this. there is no reasonable draw present such as a fd or oesd that would give a pair a boost over a lone pair. it's hard for me to see a 1.4AF player capping the flop w/, at most, a pair, gutshot, and bdfd. combine this w/ his vpip of 15, and it's really hard to imagine he semi-coldcalled w/ a hand like 78s. it really looks like a set. i can see an argument for folding this, but i probably wouldn't just because the pot is so big, and maybe i can pray for the board to pair and counterfeit sb's out-of-the-blue weird two pair. i don't think overcalling utg is a problem since he played his hand like it needs protection. if anything, he's helping to pad the losses.

hand 2, i think jackson's right. as played it's pretty hard to fold this. if you were planning to take this to showdown, why not raise the turn and make AK or AKs (if it's there) pay a little to draw?

Haupt_234 · #5 06-06-2006, 08:16 AM

You folded hand 1, not hand 2.

I like your play on both if you layed down hand 1 on the turn. It is very doubtful you are ahead and looks like you are drawing to 2 outs. The tight and pretty passive villan isn't letting up and capped the flop/led the turn. Good fold on the turn.

Hand 2 seems standard.

Haupt_234

tsrcess · #6 06-06-2006, 11:41 AM

folding is so important yet so few players do it. why is that? if a hand was folded, it certainly was #1 'cause #2 has too many ways to possibly be good. on hand one, i think i might have seen the river card and if it was an ace, jack,four or eight, i think i would pay one bet on the river. i don't think a six would be good 'cause i find it unlikely villian would play 4,8(s), but, much more likely villian would play 4,6(s) or 6,8(s)....

XmasXmas · #7 06-06-2006, 11:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
folding is so important yet so few players do it. why is that? if a hand was folded, it certainly was #1 'cause #2 has too many ways to possibly be good. on hand one, i think i might have seen the river card and if it was an ace, jack,four or eight, i think i would pay one bet on the river. i don't think a six would be good 'cause i find it unlikely villian would play 4,8(s), but, much more likely villian would play 4,6(s) or 6,8(s)....

[/ QUOTE ]

you really think a rocky player is going to call 2.5 sb pf w/ those hands huh? what's the point of having reads if you're just going to ignore them.

poboys · #8 06-06-2006, 12:22 PM

H1: I like the turn fold. Given SB's tightness, I think you are very likely drawing to two outs.

H2: Given that a player was all-in preflop, I would not fold. Players love to try getting you to fold in these scenarios far too much to treat this like a normal capped hand.

BigDan9 · #9 06-06-2006, 12:45 PM

I don't think folding Hand 1 on the turn is the wrong move against a tight player, although I think the good possibility of sb having an overpair would persuade me to call down to the river. As there was only one raise by you pf, he wouldn't be betting on the basis that his TT, QQ or KK might be good. On the other hand, the cap on the flop smells fishy to me (and there's another player to worry about) so I'd call this down and cross my fingers. I'm sure you'd win the hand enough times to justify two big bets.

Hand 2 seems right, although I'd be tempted to raise the flop to get a better idea of whether you're up against AK or a bigger pair. That would then help you to decide whether to be more agressive on the turn and river, or simply call it down.

BigDan9 · #10 06-06-2006, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he wouldn't be betting on the basis that his TT, QQ or KK might be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry: meant to say that he may be betting