The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[JackWhite]

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I thought conservatives generally believed in "free to choose"? There is value in preserving one's culture, for its own damn sake. There is a trade-off one chooses between personal values and outward success!


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Certainly. I don't think anybody has to actually choose between some assimilation and honoring their own culture, but if they decided to err on the side of cultural heritage, great. However, I don't want to then hear complaints about lack of opportunities and poverty from those who choose not to assimilate.

[ConstantineX]

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The philosophical basis is pro-Western and chauvinistic, why should arguments be framed in that perspective?

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] All I'm saying is that people generally have a few good reasons for believing the things they do, but they express it in ways that appeals to our inner xenophobia, and thus the policies they implement are not satisfactory because they don't address the real underlying issues. Any major political revolution has to actually communicate well, which eliminates a good percentage of actually good ideas.

[goodsamaritan]

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What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think? (I heard the words "assimilate" and "be a part our culture" a lot from the candidates, which sounds a heck of a lot like code to me.)

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I think 90% of the issue is culture, not racism. Have you been to a fast food restaurant or retail store lately? No one working in those places speaks English anymore. As long as the majority of the workforce that people interact with on a daily basis have 0 language skills, people will be pissed of about illegal immigration, regardless of whether those people are illegal immigrants. That and its nice to be able to go to Home Depot without being swarmed by illegal immigrants asking you if you need help.

[goodsamaritan]

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What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think? (I heard the words "assimilate" and "be a part our culture" a lot from the candidates, which sounds a heck of a lot like code to me.) What percentage is purely an economic issue? How much is fear of crime or terrorism?


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Why is talking about assimilation code word for racism? If you truly were a racist and wanted to keep brown people down, the best way would be to keep them from learning English and hope they stay in barrios. Not speaking English greatly limits opportunities in the US.

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I thought conservatives generally believed in "free to choose"? There is value in preserving one's culture, for its own damn sake. There is a trade-off one chooses between personal values and outward success!

But anyway, it strikes me that behind any popular idea on whatever spectrum there is some bit of evidence that a rational person could interpret and come away with that view. I used to be more idealistic and advocate completely open borders. But look at the empirical evidence in France and the European countries and the situation they face with increasing Islamization - it's clear to me now that allowing too many immigrants at once could be very well counterproductive to libertarian beliefs. Here all we do is bitch, grumble and groan when we try to roll back the welfare state, and in France they cripple the economy and violently riot. So there are good, practical reasons to support assimilation, especially in America where I really admire our individualistic mindset. We shouldn't be so blithely sure that immigrants immediately adopt that, because I think its so vital to our many successes.

But then again, most popular ideas didn't become popular on their merits. They become popular because they appeal to deeply held biases, correct or not, to maintain political identity. I doubt many people at all could even come up witha basic philosophical basis for why they support the issues they do, and argue issues like immigration from a pro-Western and chauvinist, perspective.

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The philosophical basis is pro-Western and chauvinistic, why should arguments be framed in that perspective?

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What percent of notable accomplishments have been made by non-Western females?

[vhawk01]

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I thought conservatives generally believed in "free to choose"? There is value in preserving one's culture, for its own damn sake. There is a trade-off one chooses between personal values and outward success!


[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly. I don't think anybody has to actually choose between some assimilation and honoring their own culture, but if they decided to err on the side of cultural heritage, great. However, I don't want to then hear complaints about lack of opportunities and poverty from those who choose not to assimilate.

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Are you talking about people currently in America or what? I'm confused. Is it ok if they all come here just as long as they dont complain? Because if thats what you are saying it sounds awesome to me, seriously.

[vhawk01]

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What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think? (I heard the words "assimilate" and "be a part our culture" a lot from the candidates, which sounds a heck of a lot like code to me.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 90% of the issue is culture, not racism. Have you been to a fast food restaurant or retail store lately? No one working in those places speaks English anymore. As long as the majority of the workforce that people interact with on a daily basis have 0 language skills, people will be pissed of about illegal immigration, regardless of whether those people are illegal immigrants. That and its nice to be able to go to Home Depot without being swarmed by illegal immigrants asking you if you need help.

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Good thing the [censored] morons who you are talking about here get to decide how much my goods and services cost because they are bigoted morons. And when I say bigot I am referring to the stipulated fact that they get angry about illegal immigration just because their Gap cashier speaks broken English.

[clowntable]

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What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think? (I heard the words "assimilate" and "be a part our culture" a lot from the candidates, which sounds a heck of a lot like code to me.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 90% of the issue is culture, not racism. Have you been to a fast food restaurant or retail store lately? No one working in those places speaks English anymore. As long as the majority of the workforce that people interact with on a daily basis have 0 language skills, people will be pissed of about illegal immigration, regardless of whether those people are illegal immigrants. That and its nice to be able to go to Home Depot without being swarmed by illegal immigrants asking you if you need help.

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In return, stuff is cheaper.

[AlexM]

McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

[Kaj]

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What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think? (I heard the words "assimilate" and "be a part our culture" a lot from the candidates, which sounds a heck of a lot like code to me.) What percentage is purely an economic issue? How much is fear of crime or terrorism?


[/ QUOTE ]

Why is talking about assimilation code word for racism? If you truly were a racist and wanted to keep brown people down, the best way would be to keep them from learning English and hope they stay in barrios. Not speaking English greatly limits opportunities in the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought conservatives generally believed in "free to choose"? There is value in preserving one's culture, for its own damn sake. There is a trade-off one chooses between personal values and outward success!

But anyway, it strikes me that behind any popular idea on whatever spectrum there is some bit of evidence that a rational person could interpret and come away with that view. I used to be more idealistic and advocate completely open borders. But look at the empirical evidence in France and the European countries and the situation they face with increasing Islamization - it's clear to me now that allowing too many immigrants at once could be very well counterproductive to libertarian beliefs. Here all we do is bitch, grumble and groan when we try to roll back the welfare state, and in France they cripple the economy and violently riot. So there are good, practical reasons to support assimilation, especially in America where I really admire our individualistic mindset. We shouldn't be so blithely sure that immigrants immediately adopt that, because I think its so vital to our many successes.

But then again, most popular ideas didn't become popular on their merits. They become popular because they appeal to deeply held biases, correct or not, to maintain political identity. I doubt many people at all could even come up witha basic philosophical basis for why they support the issues they do, and argue issues like immigration from a pro-Western and chauvinist, perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

The philosophical basis is pro-Western and chauvinistic, why should arguments be framed in that perspective?

[/ QUOTE ]

What percent of notable accomplishments have been made by non-Western females?

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Uggh, these "what % of questions" are tiresome... But here's one if you like this game:

What percent of notable atrocities have been made by non-Western females?

[InTheDark]

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Can someone explain to me why the Republicans seem to be so rabid about the immigration issue? It seems to be the #1 issue on republican voters' list (even above Iraq, terrorism, the economy).

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At the top of my list is rule of law. I want the US to decide on who becomes new immigrants, not criminal economic motivations from a failed state.

If you hang drywall in CA then your objection is simple economics. Your pay has gone backwards due to serious competitive pressure.

Much of the less informed cohort's objection is cultural. Non-english speakers are in your face and impossible to ignore. Press 1 for English? F that, they think.