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#1
11-01-2007, 02:56 PM
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In most situations are you completing with Q2[Q]? (stud)
If it is limped before you with cards lower than a Q and there is only a K or an A ahead of you, are you completing this or limping? My real question is a high pair poor kicker always complete worthy?
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#2
11-01-2007, 03:02 PM
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Re: In most situations are you completing with Q2[Q]? (stud)
I do. You want as few people in the pot as possible, ESPECIALLY with a weaker holding. If you don't raise you are going to have people playing all sorts of middling hands that may have a K or A overcard in them that they may fold for a completion.
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#4
11-01-2007, 05:24 PM
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Re: In most situations are you completing with Q2[Q]? (stud)
Depends, if there are more than 2 limps ahead of me, I will just call. No need to inflate the pot to the point of nobody folding with a semi-weak hand. In that case, I will usually limp, then bet out on 4th street, as people are more likely to fold then, since they haven't put much in the pot, but they did get to see 1 more card.
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#5
11-01-2007, 05:56 PM
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Re: In most situations are you completing with Q2[Q]? (stud)
[ QUOTE ]
Depends, if there are more than 2 limps ahead of me, I will just call. No need to inflate the pot to the point of nobody folding with a semi-weak hand. In that case, I will usually limp, then bet out on 4th street, as people are more likely to fold then, since they haven't put much in the pot, but they did get to see 1 more card. [/ QUOTE ] i find people wont fold when you do this because they dont believe you have a big hand since you are a ruddy limper...that has merits in itself though, but would only do it on occasion.
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#6
11-01-2007, 10:11 PM
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Re: In most situations are you completing with Q2[Q]? (stud)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Depends, if there are more than 2 limps ahead of me, I will just call. No need to inflate the pot to the point of nobody folding with a semi-weak hand. In that case, I will usually limp, then bet out on 4th street, as people are more likely to fold then, since they haven't put much in the pot, but they did get to see 1 more card. [/ QUOTE ] i find people wont fold when you do this because they dont believe you have a big hand since you are a ruddy limper...that has merits in itself though, but would only do it on occasion. [/ QUOTE ] It also becomes a lot easier to get away from your own hand if you need to, since you yourself haven't put that much money in, and the pot is smaller. The reason that you don't want to complete in these cases, is that when you call, you are getting a great price on your call, usually around 8 to 1 when there are a bunch of callers ahead of you. However, if you complete, then you aren't getting as good a price on your raise. You are then getting 3-1 or so, depending on # of limpers, and you may not always be getting the odds to justify the bet, since if a lot of draws are out, your equity would drop below the odds you are getting. This is discussed in detail, SSSFTAP. If you need me to go into further detail, let me know, and I will go to the chapter and try and summarize it better.
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#7
11-02-2007, 11:00 AM
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Re: In most situations are you completing with Q2[Q]? (stud)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Depends, if there are more than 2 limps ahead of me, I will just call. No need to inflate the pot to the point of nobody folding with a semi-weak hand. In that case, I will usually limp, then bet out on 4th street, as people are more likely to fold then, since they haven't put much in the pot, but they did get to see 1 more card. [/ QUOTE ] i find people wont fold when you do this because they dont believe you have a big hand since you are a ruddy limper...that has merits in itself though, but would only do it on occasion. [/ QUOTE ] It also becomes a lot easier to get away from your own hand if you need to, since you yourself haven't put that much money in, and the pot is smaller. The reason that you don't want to complete in these cases, is that when you call, you are getting a great price on your call, usually around 8 to 1 when there are a bunch of callers ahead of you. However, if you complete, then you aren't getting as good a price on your raise. You are then getting 3-1 or so, depending on # of limpers, and you may not always be getting the odds to justify the bet, since if a lot of draws are out, your equity would drop below the odds you are getting. This is discussed in detail, SSSFTAP. If you need me to go into further detail, let me know, and I will go to the chapter and try and summarize it better. [/ QUOTE ] It may be true that nobody behind you will fold but if there are a number of people after you, don't you want them to face 3 to 1 on a call instead of 8 to 1. I want to discourage 6 way action with the completion. If you are last or next to last to act, I can see a call. It isn't THAT hard to get away from a hand on 5th with just a completion on 3rd. I think the only real benefit to limping is if you think you will be in a position to raise 4th. This depends on a lot of factors that are not in your control though. Funny, I was just playing a hand as writing this and there were a couple callers and a King called and I called last to act with 556 and hit a 5 on 4th...he showed me kings up on the river.
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#8
11-02-2007, 09:25 PM
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Re: In most situations are you completing with Q2[Q]? (stud)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Depends, if there are more than 2 limps ahead of me, I will just call. No need to inflate the pot to the point of nobody folding with a semi-weak hand. In that case, I will usually limp, then bet out on 4th street, as people are more likely to fold then, since they haven't put much in the pot, but they did get to see 1 more card. [/ QUOTE ] i find people wont fold when you do this because they dont believe you have a big hand since you are a ruddy limper...that has merits in itself though, but would only do it on occasion. [/ QUOTE ] It also becomes a lot easier to get away from your own hand if you need to, since you yourself haven't put that much money in, and the pot is smaller. The reason that you don't want to complete in these cases, is that when you call, you are getting a great price on your call, usually around 8 to 1 when there are a bunch of callers ahead of you. However, if you complete, then you aren't getting as good a price on your raise. You are then getting 3-1 or so, depending on # of limpers, and you may not always be getting the odds to justify the bet, since if a lot of draws are out, your equity would drop below the odds you are getting. This is discussed in detail, SSSFTAP. If you need me to go into further detail, let me know, and I will go to the chapter and try and summarize it better. [/ QUOTE ] It may be true that nobody behind you will fold but if there are a number of people after you, don't you want them to face 3 to 1 on a call instead of 8 to 1. I want to discourage 6 way action with the completion. If you are last or next to last to act, I can see a call. It isn't THAT hard to get away from a hand on 5th with just a completion on 3rd. I think the only real benefit to limping is if you think you will be in a position to raise 4th. This depends on a lot of factors that are not in your control though. Funny, I was just playing a hand as writing this and there were a couple callers and a King called and I called last to act with 556 and hit a 5 on 4th...he showed me kings up on the river. [/ QUOTE ] The problem is that you can't even be that sure you have the best hand. The OP stated that there is still a K or an A left to act. If I could be pretty confident that I had the best hand, I'd be more inclined to raise, but with 2 or 3 limps ahead of me, and 1 or 2 overcards behind me, I'm not going to put myself in the middle of it w/ a raise.
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#9
11-03-2007, 12:30 AM
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Re: In most situations are you completing with Q2[Q]? (stud)
I normally lean to the aggro side in stud games but the more I think about it limping might be best here. If we assume that the original limpers will not fold to a completion (which may not necessarily true if they are solid), then the real downside to limping is just the value you lose on the 3rd street bet. But the way stud hand values work you're not going to be a huge favorite on 3rd. Also there is about a 27% chance the A or K has a split pair in which case completing will be very -EV. I think the freecard issue is not that important since you won't be getting 3-flushes or 3-straights out for one bet and it's not really that common for the A or K to limp with just big cards.
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#10
11-03-2007, 01:00 AM
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Re: In most situations are you completing with Q2[Q]? (stud)
[ QUOTE ]
I normally lean to the aggro side in stud games but the more I think about it limping might be best here. If we assume that the original limpers will not fold to a completion (which may not necessarily true if they are solid), then the real downside to limping is just the value you lose on the 3rd street bet. But the way stud hand values work you're not going to be a huge favorite on 3rd. Also there is about a 27% chance the A or K has a split pair in which case completing will be very -EV. I think the freecard issue is not that important since you won't be getting 3-flushes or 3-straights out for one bet and it's not really that common for the A or K to limp with just big cards. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe not in a bigger game but in a 3/6 FT game about 90% of people will limp with something like AJT and great amount of people will limp with any big 2 card hold em type hand in the hole, like AK, AJ, etc. I dont think it is only a matter of the value you lose on 3rd that is affected. There is also the issue of increasing your chances to scoop the pot, which go up with the more people you shut out. Now again, it could be worth waiting I think if you have an aggressive player behind you and think you will be able to face the field with a raise....if they were aggressive though they probably wouldnt have limped!
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