ATo in BB - simple flop question

[*TT*]

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It sounds to me like there are some inflexible people out there.

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Confucius say in a vacuum all player passive. If button is bet happy, he is not in vacuum

[private joker]

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Yes, without any other given information, the default line would be to bet/3-bet. This would be an especially standard play at a passive table.
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It sounds to me like there are some inflexible people out there.

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Hey Garland, let's say you were in the CO and an unknown player limped in to your right. You're holding KK. What do you do?

Did you say raise? Why are you so inflexible? (By the way, I forgot to give you the extra information that the limper flashed you AA before you acted).

So while, yes, the *default* play is to raise KK, I think you should be aware that there are some situations, like when the limper has AA, where we can fold KK preflop. Just be flexible, ok?

[Garland]

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Yes, without any other given information, the default line would be to bet/3-bet. This would be an especially standard play at a passive table.
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It sounds to me like there are some inflexible people out there.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]


Hey Garland, let's say you were in the CO and an unknown player limped in to your right. You're holding KK. What do you do?

Did you say raise? Why are you so inflexible? (By the way, I forgot to give you the extra information that the limper flashed you AA before you acted).

So while, yes, the *default* play is to raise KK, I think you should be aware that there are some situations, like when the limper has AA, where we can fold KK preflop. Just be flexible, ok?

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Now you're just being silly. You're taking a 100% play like raising a limper with KK and comparing it to this?

There are 100% plays and then there are debatable plays.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact you should bet in this situation. At all. However, I am saying there are options, if someone were to explain them to me, I would listen. It sounds like you don't want to listen. Just like in all the pre-flop discussions with everyone telling you, Joker, that you could loosen up just a tad bit.

This hand was played on Full Tilt, right? An online site, not a live game. Now listen to this: I used to play online games frequently. And they were quite aggressive...much more aggressive than live. If someone were to tell me there was zero chance that this gets checked around on the flop (ignore the fact that the pot wasn't raised pre-flop), what do you think the correct play is?

Garland

[private joker]

Garland, I apologize if the post came off as snarky. All I was doing was exaggerating to prove a point. The point was that we suggested a line based on the given information.

You endorsed the exact same line as we did, based on the same information we had.

Then you went on to call us all inflexible for not proposing there may be a different line available if we had more/different information about the opponents. Of course that is true. But that goes without saying. The poll suggests what to do *in the situation presented*, not in a different situation with different information.

I don't know where you're getting the whole "it sounds like you don't want to listen" observation from. Obviously there are times where I'd c/r TPTK. (e.g. I call a button raise from the BB with ATs and the flop comes Txx; obviously a c/r is a fine line to take there). But that wasn't the scenario.

[Garland]

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Garland, I apologize if the post came off as snarky.

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That's fine. I know what your point was. Although, it did appear mean at the time.

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Then you went on to call us all inflexible for not proposing there may be a different line available if we had more/different information about the opponents.

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The information that was available to all of us at the time was it was an online game. And as I remember these games, there was a much greater chance of a bet on the flop with these games than live games. If it were a live game, 100% bet/3-bet the flop. Now it's an online game where I'm not quite sure which play is correct (partly because I just entered the game, and partly because I just came back to online play after a long layoff, but remember online games as very, very tough/aggressive). I might actually actually take two different lines. Something like 75% bet/25% check-raise/0% check-call. And this can change of course during the course of a game. It's called "mixing it up". We do this once in awhile to vary our game because we don't have to be robots.

Garland

[gaming_mouse]

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c/c shouldn't even be an option. just bet

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happy bday kiddo.

[private joker]

Why should I bother playing a guessing game as to whether or not my unknown opponents might be aggressive? What's the worst that can happen if I bet... they fold? Oh no, I won the pot. And if they don't... they might raise. Oh no, then I have to 3-bet TPTK.

What's the worst that can happen if I check... it checks around. Now a whole bunch of cards can come off on the turn to make my pot equity plummet. That's-a no good.

So I say again: these are unknowns. It's a limped pot. I flopped TPTK on a board with 2 diamonds. I'm betting it. It's the best play. I can't see how betting is not a good play.

And please don't patronize me by explaining what "mixing it up" means. Come on, man. You really think I never mix it up? That's so condescending and insulting.

[bakku]

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c/c shouldn't even be an option. just bet

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happy bday kiddo.

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thanks jonah

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So I say again: these are unknowns. It's a limped pot. I flopped TPTK on a board with 2 diamonds. I'm betting it. It's the best play. I can't see how betting is not a good play.

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yup

[*TT*]

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And please don't patronize me by explaining what "mixing it up" means. Come on, man. You really think I never mix it up?

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[Garland]

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What's the worst that can happen if I check... it checks around. Now a whole bunch of cards can come off on the turn to make my pot equity plummet. That's-a no good.

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Yes, that's the worst that can happen. But what's the best that can happen if it gets checked through? An A appears and you get paid off by a hand that would otherwise fold if you bet out. A blank comes off, and your equity jumps and you can encounter the field with a double-sized bet into a smaller pot. There's two sides to every coin.

In check-raising, the benefit comes from getting bets from hands that would never even call a bet in the first place.

If you were to ask what I should do a couple of years ago in the Paradise 20/40 full ring games in this particular spot (not knowing my specific opponents, but being keenly aware of how the games played), it would be check-raise all day. I'm not sure how Full Tilt runs, but I'm inclined to believe my online opponents are much more aggressive than my live counterparts, and I would at least entertain a check-raise line.

I agree that I was somewhat out of line with the adding information about the button and/or the MP3 and being "inflexible." But I will argue that online game aggression discussion should be part of the mix when making this decision. That should be where the crux of where I thought the "inflexible" thinking came in.

Now, let's try to end this peacefully: We both agree that we should bet/3-bet, right? No disagreement here. But you make it sound like there's no alternative. I'm pretty sure we are both mainly live players, correct? And most of the people here are too. (Please correct me if I'm wrong: TT, Private Joker, bakku I believe are mainly live players). Can we get some mid-stakes online pros (maybe specifically Full Tilt ones) to post here and get their prospective?

I apologize for the "mixing it up" remark. I did not intend to be condescending, and I'm sorry if I insulted you. That's obviously not the case after seeing the hand you played with CDC [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Can we get on with our daily program now?

Garland <font color="yellow"> </font>