bluffing? position?

[quirkasaurus]

coming back to playing PLO8 after playing lots of NLHE
where position and bluffing seem nearly as important as
your cards.

I don't believe that these 2 factors are nearly as
important in PLO8 as your hold cards, especially
bluffing ability.

about equal in both games, i think, are your reads
on the players.

What are your opinions ?
And how do you rank these factors ?

thanks ahead of time.

[daboyz715]

I play mostly 2 4 PLO8 on Bodog short handed. Full ring, I think you could make the argument cards are just as important as position, especially in limp PLO8.

Short handed though, bluffing is a huge part of playing. If you just bet your made hands, you will get no action. You need to bluff a large chunk of the time, so that your opponent must guess whether you have a hand or not. The best times to bluff is when there is no low on the board and a flush or paired board out there. Your opponent must give you credit for a hand, especially if you just showed him the nuts.

Bluffing out of position is never a good idea. You have no idea what your opponent has, so you should only play strong hands out of position.

With this in mind, I strongly advocate opening up your starting hands on the cut off and button, as you will have position the whole hand. It will be come obvious when your opponent is drawing to a low, flush, etc, and you can price him out, even if you have nothing yourself. Bluffing and semi bluffing is imperative in Plo8 at higher levels, and must become an integral part of one's game.

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
coming back to playing PLO8 after playing lots of NLHE
where position and bluffing seem nearly as important as
your cards.

I don't believe that these 2 factors are nearly as
important in PLO8 as your hold cards, especially
bluffing ability.

about equal in both games, i think, are your reads
on the players.

What are your opinions ?
And how do you rank these factors ?

thanks ahead of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

daboyz brings up a good point in that you really have to tell us what stakes and how many opponents you're playing against. I assume that since you're just getting started you're playing relatively low stakes and 9 handed.

If so, then yes, you're 100% correct that your cards are going to matter a lot more than bluffing and position, especially bluffing. This is a drastic change from the world of NLHE. If I were teaching someone how to play and I started them off at low limit 9 handed games, I would tell them to not bluff at all for their first few sessions. You will pass up slightly +EV situations, but you'll still be able to win a ton at those levels nut peddling and you'll gain experience and understanding.

As you move up and get better, you must incorporate bluffing into your game more and more. And position is a huge part of bluffing in PLO- its much easier to bluff in LP. Let me give you an example of a perfect time to bluff and then I'll tell you why it was such a good opportunity:


You have A269 rainbow and limp on the button in a $1/2 PLO8 game. Theres one other limper and the 2 blinds to the flop. Flop comes KQJ rainbow. Everyone checks to you. I'd bet 75-100% of the pot here about 90% of the time. Heres why this is a good situation:

-Everyone checked. Because there are so many possiblities in PLO people rarely check their made hands that aren't total monsters. If someone had the straight they would have to bet to guard against 2 pair making a full house.

-There are no low or flush draws. If the hand was 789 with 2 of one suit, you should be much less likely to bet because those draws are likely to call you(especially if they have both in which case they may even raise you) unless you drastically overbet the pot.

-You have the A and the 9 in your hand, which are 2 of the 12 cards in the deck that make up possible straights.

-Your opponents aren't tricky. Obviously this isn't hard rule and is very read dependant, but at $1/2 full ring most players can profit playing straightforward. If you were at $5/10 shorthanded, for example, I think it'd be much more likely that someone goes for a check raise with their straight or even reads your play as a bluff and comes over the top of you on a re-bluff.



I think your OP is right on the money when you say that cards are the most important, then position, then bluffing. As you can see from the bluff above, position enables you to bluff much more often because in PLO8 players must give their hands away much more often than in HE in order to guard against draws that may beat them. And obviously position is valuable for all of the reasons it is valuable in HE.

[quirkasaurus]

assani - correct-amundo -- 9 player, micro/micro limits.
hoping to move up as bankroll dictates and my early
successes continue.

i like your bluff situation, so i'll give it try and
see what happens.

another situation:

on a 2 or 3 heart board, checked around to you in LP,
1 to a low, some preflop raising, would you agree that
this is another good bluff opportunity ?

[Assani Fisher]

A 3 heart board would be fine because you're representing the flush. A 2 heart board would be horrible because I don't know what you're representing and its possible that someone is drawing to the flush. You bluff when you're in LP, everyone has checked to you, theres a made hand out there that is the current nuts but vulnerable, and there arne't draws out there. An added incentive to bluff would be having one of the cards that makes up the nuts(in this case the ace of hearts). As you learn more, you can bluff more liberally but for starters thats about it.

And at "micro/micro" limits, its not terrible advice to literally NEVER bluff.

[quirkasaurus]

[ QUOTE ]

And at "micro/micro" limits, it's not terrible advice to literally NEVER bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can handle this advice. :-)

[Assani Fisher]

In other words, don't do this:

Full Tilt Poker Game #3201539595: Table Vandalia - $1/$2 - No Limit Omaha H/L - 15:18:31 ET - 2007/08/09
Seat 1: dmsz ($276.70)
Seat 2: sangaman ($230.40)
Seat 3: Ram33 ($181)
Seat 4: Assani Fisher ($204.40)
Seat 5: texas_great ($64.15)
Seat 6: ProtekYoNuts ($194.85)
Seat 7: justnutzzz ($210.35)
Seat 8: FAHayek ($62)
Seat 9: scrapperdog ($418.55)
Ram33 posts the small blind of $1
Assani Fisher posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Assani Fisher [2c 5c 6h As]
texas_great folds
ProtekYoNuts folds
justnutzzz calls $2
FAHayek calls $2
scrapperdog calls $2
dmsz folds
sangaman folds
Ram33 calls $1
Assani Fisher checks
*** FLOP *** [3h 4d Tc]
Ram33 checks
Assani Fisher bets $10
justnutzzz calls $10
FAHayek folds
scrapperdog calls $10
Ram33 calls $10
*** TURN *** [3h 4d Tc] [Kd]
Ram33 checks
Assani Fisher checks
justnutzzz bets $50
scrapperdog has 15 seconds left to act
scrapperdog folds
Ram33 calls $50
Assani Fisher calls $50
*** RIVER *** [3h 4d Tc Kd] [9s]
Ram33 has 15 seconds left to act
Ram33 checks
Assani Fisher bets $142.40, and is all in
justnutzzz folds
Ram33 folds
Uncalled bet of $142.40 returned to Assani Fisher
Assani Fisher mucks
Assani Fisher wins the pot ($197)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $200 | Rake $3
Board: [3h 4d Tc Kd 9s]
Seat 1: dmsz didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: sangaman (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Ram33 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 4: Assani Fisher (big blind) collected ($197), mucked
Seat 5: texas_great didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: ProtekYoNuts didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: justnutzzz folded on the River
Seat 8: FAHayek folded on the Flop
Seat 9: scrapperdog folded on the Turn

[davebreal]

[ QUOTE ]
And at "micro/micro" limits, its not terrible advice to literally NEVER bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

2nded... not even worth thinking about at the micros, every table is full of calling stations. if they were good players, they wouldn't be at those stakes.

[quirkasaurus]

You were representing the made straight, and had an inkling
everyone else was drawing to a low with all the calls ?
you weren't worried about justfornutz's bet on the turn ?

[ QUOTE ]

if they were good players, they wouldn't be at those stakes.


[/ QUOTE ]

:-( ... but I'm at those levels!! ( lol, where i belong )

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
You were representing the made straight, and had an inkling
everyone else was drawing to a low with all the calls ?
you weren't worried about justfornutz's bet on the turn ?


[/ QUOTE ]

I was not at all worried about his bet on the turn because why would he bet as the last person to act when he has a draw risking getting check raised off of it? The only hands I was worried about would be a made hand like two pair or trips that also had JQ or a really good drawing hand like A2JQ. My all in bet was around 75% of the pot, so as long as I take it 1/2 the time its a good bet, and with his range theres no way he has one of those hands 1/2 the time. Now whether hes good enough to a set there is another matter, but the majority of players aren't going to call huge bets with just a set on an obvious straight board.

As for the guy in EP I thought that he would've bet the river if he caught and not risked everyone checking it down. Basically it was a calculated risk that happened to work out.