Mid-pair at turn

[clickk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Result:

I folded
UTG had A4
UTG1 had 65

bah

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I'm beeing result oriented or something, but I don't hate my raising line so much anymore [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]! Well played by UTG+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good suggestion of raising I may get him called or if he reraised he most probably had me beaten and when he checked on river (he did) I know what's happened.

[Sushiglutton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Result:

I folded
UTG had A4
UTG1 had 65

bah

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I'm beeing result oriented or something, but I don't hate my raising line so much anymore [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]! Well played by UTG+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good suggestion of raising I may get him called or if he reraised he most probably had me beaten and when he checked on river (he did) I know what's happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ty,
honestly I'm not sure about the raising myself. I just thought UTG+1 line smelled weakness. If he slowplayed a set why is he not going for a CR on the turn? If MP calls I would def. have folded. Now the flop bettor folds. And there is a new draw in town. Know that most others hate the raise and they're are probably right. I'm known for having strange ideas every now and then... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]. Foreigner u know...

[kumarshah]

I hope you made notes on both

[Steve00007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The pot is fairly large. This hand is too strong to fold, and calling won't protect the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like a hand to protect first. Middle pair (albiet top kicker) on a King high flop when there's five opponents is not strong; I really don't think this is going to win U/I enough even if we try to protect it.

I just stoved it, and given a reasonable holding by MP1* we're pretty far behind him, 18.5% to 33.6%. Unless we know the guy likes to bluff a lot (hey OP we need a read or some other indication that you care about this thread), this really feels like we're protecting the second best hand way too often here.

If the flop were maybe J high then I could dig it more since fewer folks play any J, but this just smells of spew.

* 88-77, A8s-A7s, K8s+, Q8s+ 98s, 87s, A8o-A7o, K9o+; basically a decent K/8/7, OESD or better than a pair

Edit: I'd also like it more if it were only 4 to the flop apparently like the Miller hand mentioned above; there's twice as many hole cards out there in this hand though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a few more things to say about this so I'll say them here. For now I'll ignore the recent posts by the OP.

I used the word strong because on page 156 of SSHE it says this: "When the player directly on your right bets, you should almost always either raise or fold. If your hand is too strong to fold, raise. Calling is almost always wrong because it fails to protect your hand." The same paragraph also recommends playing aggressively in large and multiway pots during the flop. This isn't the biggest pot ever, but I tend to think of it as a large pot.

One problem I have with calling is if someone in this hand has something like a gutshot or bottom pair, they're getting a much better price to call for just one bet. Someone could easily hold a gutshot with a hand like J-10, and it will be profitable for such a player to stick around for just one bet. Raising may also push out players with a small pocket pair, or even hands like K-9 because someone doesn't feel good about their kicker after the flop was just bet and raised. Even if a 9 comes on the turn for this person, that 9 might make a straight for someone, so the person with K-9 isn't in a great spot. Anyone with hands like K-6, K-5, or worse really shouldn't feel good about their hand.

While I agree that A-8 is very likely to be behind at this point, I don't think putting an extra small bet out there is a big deal if it will win a few extra pots. Not only might someone fold a king to a raise, but even the bettor on the flop might fold the turn if hero bets again. If a lot of people don't fold the flop, hero might pick up a spade draw on the turn and bet it there since he has a pot equity edge. This could cause someone with a pair of kings to fold. The backdoor flush draw is nice to have on a hand like this.

I don't think it's as likely as it seems that someone has a hand like K-K, A-K, K-Q, or even K-J since nobody raised before the flop. It's more likely that there are hands like K-10, K-9, K-6, or K-5. In other words, there's a good chance that someone doesn't like their kicker that much. Also, although MP1 may have a reasonable holding, people make a lot of dumb decisions at the poker tables. Even if he is a decent player, he might be on tilt and playing more hands than usual.

I also think there's a good chance that hero gets a free card on the turn. Since there's a good chance that even the people with top pair don't like their hand (I don't think that anyone has top pair with a great kicker), I wouldn't be too surprised if everyone checked to him on the turn.

Another reason I favor a raise is it makes me look more unpredictable to my opponents.

Of course not everything is great about this raise. If someone has a set or two pair, I'm in trouble, but I still think this is offset by everything else I've discussed already.

In short, raising on this flop wins more large pots, it's far more likely to force opponents into making mistakes (in some cases major mistakes like folding top pair), it does a much better job of protecting the hand than either calling or folding, it has a good chance of getting a free card on the turn, and it makes hero more unpredictable to his opponents.

[Steve00007]

[ QUOTE ]
Result:

I folded
UTG had A4
UTG1 had 65

bah

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. If you look at the bright side, that sounds like a pretty good table to play at. 7 to the flop and now this.

[clickk]

Nice Steve.

Think in term of EV:

If folding EV=0

If calling EV=+ve, as I got a good pot odd

If raising EV=+ve on 1st small bet, the extra small bet is -ve EV. Hoever if I can get somebody folded I can get +ve on each player folded (improved probability to win the pot for each player folded). If the +ve EV of getting people folded is higher than the -ve EV of 1 small bet, I get better EV from raising.

Also SSHE said 1 thing that's very important to the nature of poker, "Poker is gambling". The difference between Poker and many other gambling is you can get favourable odd when people playing badly. If you play roulette you get unfavourable odd or -ve EV. In poker you can get +ve by exploiting people playing on -ve EV situation. In a purely skill games like chess if a pro is playing with a beginner the beginner cannot win a single game so the pro will not take any risk during the game. In poker a beginner can get lucky 1 day and beat a pro, but he can't beat a pro for long run. If I think "Hmm I have risk in this situation and that situation so I better fold" but don't put +EV in mind I will not get the most from the fishes.