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#1
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
[ QUOTE ]
3)Opponent folds his hand which could be ( PP < T's) a T or air. [/ QUOTE ] This is *extremely* undesirable, IMO. Those hands are where a lot of your value is going to come from when you're ahead. Maybe I'm completely off-base here, but raising when we're going to get rid of exactly *zero* better hands, but lose quite a few worse hands that would be more than happy to put more money in later, and that are all drawing to 2-5 outs *if that*, seems really bad. Of course, if I just call, I don't plan on folding to many turn bets, either. *edit*:fixed out counts for hands that are behind. A lot of hands that are behind need running cards. |
#2
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 3)Opponent folds his hand which could be ( PP < T's) a T or air. [/ QUOTE ] This is *extremely* undesirable, IMO. Those hands are where a lot of your value is going to come from when you're ahead. Maybe I'm completely off-base here, but raising when we're going to get rid of exactly *zero* better hands, but lose quite a few worse hands that would be more than happy to put more money in later, and that are all drawing to 3-5 outs, seems really bad. Of course, if I just call, I don't plan on folding to many turn bets, either. [/ QUOTE ] You are not off-base at all. Ill Q this FT. |
#3
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
Thats my point, if we just call this is whats going to happen on the turn hes going to bet again and we cant fold, i might call flop, and raise all in on a non J or 9 turn.(Since i think a donkbet by villain here is a T alot more than an A) and the most probable holdings are JT or T9.
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#4
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
I kinda didnt read TNixons last sentence regarding the not folding to a turnbet.
While Im gonna call some bets vs. some opponents, I do not quite see why we cant fold. What do solid opponents two-barrel desert-dry A-hi boards with? Unless I have a read on his betsizes I can comfortably fold to a 2/3 psb here. Noone at the 11s is ever valuebetting a T here and I dont quite see JJ or QQ in his range doing that either. So what do you put him on when you call the turn? A bluff. I dont like putting solid opponents on bluffs given that line + board structure. |
#5
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
Hra , I like the calling idea but it's NOT to fold on the turn . You may call a turn bet and possibly fold to a river bet .
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#6
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
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Thats my point, if we just call this is whats going to happen on the turn hes going to bet again [/ QUOTE ] Yes, and we call many bets on the turn because we're ahead of his range, and because that's the best way to get value out of pretty much every hand that doesn't have an ace in it. If we raise the flop, we narrow his range mostly to hands that are beating us, and we've given free money to any ace that has us drawing ultra-thin. In addition, the ace can get even more chips out of us by calling our raise and checking the turn, which is exactly what many of the weaker aces are going to do. Also, depending on the opponent, not every ace is going to bet again if we just call. Most opponents are going to bet the turn with even weak aces, especially if they donk out on the flop, but some opponents are going to check/call the turn and river, or maybe bet the river if we check behind on the turn. Add that possibility to the times that they're betting the turn with a worse hand, and raising just looks worse and worse. |
#7
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
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I never said that a mini-raise will get him to fold an ace , you did . [/ QUOTE ] Yet again you fail miserably at reading comprehension, because I specifically said that a mini-raise is *never* going to get an ace to fold, and asked for your definition of "success". If your definition included getting an ace to fold, then it was clearly off-base. (but if it didn't include getting an ace to fold, then it was very strangely phrased) If "success" just meant getting value out of worse hands, then there are better options, which you do seem to realize. So if we're saying the same thing, why do you insist on being a jackass about it? |
#8
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
Yea, a minraise is great. Fold out all hands we can thin value bet against later in the hand, or enough of them to make it -EV to thin value bet later in the hand and build the pot with a weaker hand.
Have fun playing the hand when he flat calls or reads the minraise as weak and shoves a T or something. This is one of those spots that you get confused and think "if I were facing a minraise I'd fold everything except Ax + so I'll do that to him." People don't think like you. |
#9
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
Don't raise so much preflop. There's a reason it's correct to raise more pf when deeper stacked- shorter stacked you want to give yourself room to maneuver.
Min raising to lose the minimum and to get value from worse hands is a terrible way to think in this hand because villian is not a robot and will not play his hand faceup. Everyone seems to assume that if villian has an A he will auto check the turn and auto lead the river if we min raise. This is false. And don't assume that if villian has a T he will call our min bet and then check it down. Also, if we min raise and he pushes we are getting good odds to call. And since there's no reason for him to take this line (leading) with an A I would be inclined to call a push. |
#10
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Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
His raise pre-flop is fine considering that he's been very aggressive so he should get some loose calls from villain .
There is nothing wrong with raising 3x the BB if you expect to be called with worse hands . |
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