NL 200: Value with AA

[ActionStan]

He semi-bluff raised, threw out a blocking bet on the turn and got paid off on the river when his draw came in. Easy as pie.

I think you needed to move in either on the flop or the turn. You certainly shouldn't be raising him on the river. You don't beat anything he's going to call with.

[novel20]

But if you raise all in on turn, his 44 would not call. This is like leaving money on the table! Is it okay to mix it up and play tricky sometimes to extract maximum value on river?

[ QUOTE ]
NLHE is NOT about tricking people by horribly misplaying your hand. Your object should not be to extract maximum value from the worst end of villains range.

[/ QUOTE ]

[novel20]

WCGRider please post results, these dudes do not seem to know what they are talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
He semi-bluff raised, threw out a blocking bet on the turn and got paid off on the river when his draw came in. Easy as pie.

I think you needed to move in either on the flop or the turn. You certainly shouldn't be raising him on the river. You don't beat anything he's going to call with.

[/ QUOTE ]

[WCGRider]

Opponent had KK in this situation, and given his insane week turn, and even WEAKER river bet, i think it makes sense.

[pterodactyl_]

This is gross. You flat call the turn but RAISE the river when the most obvious draw comes in?? Looks like you are turning your hand into a bluff. KK is about the only hand that you beat which will call the raise.

Novel20...newest troll?

[WCGRider]

Whats the villains hand range on the river? What hands are limp calling a raise other then a pair? What set plays it like this? i have the Ace of hearts.

Please give me an accurate range here given his turn and river bet sizes.

And Will someone answer me, why should i shove turn? I miss value from weaker and all stronger call me.

Maybe i really thought this out in a different way then you guys, and maybe I am not as good at poker as I thought. But i really thought that based on this guys action, this had to be a pair of like JJ to KK. I eliminated a set from his range on the river bet, and this is not a SC type of hand. This is he check raised the flop with a good hand hoping i folded, and is not happy i am still around and is making small bets to get to a cheap showdown. No one is betting that turn that small AND that river that small if they want to get the money in on the river.

So whats his range? I don't understand why I am being berated here.

[CalledDownLight]

shove turn because you get value from all draws and if he's willing to get a made hand in on the river then he'll get it in on the turn too

[ActionStan]

I would take QQ and KK out of most people's range. Certainly KK. Most people just don't limp/call with KK. They limp/re-raise. But, for the sake of argument, let's say they'll play QQ that meekly. That leaves JJ and QQ in the limp/call category.

What else do people limp with? Everybody limp calls with small pocket pairs. Tons of bad players limp call with suited connectors and suited A's. I'm not saying it's right, but lots and lots of people do. So the flop comes and the villain check/raises. Could he have JJ or the unlikely KK/QQ? Sure. But he could also have 22, 55, TT, 9hTh, ThJh, QhTh, QhJh, KhTh, KhQh and a few of the smaller heart suited connectors. You have the Ah, so a whole class of hands isn't there.

Now, the turn comes. For a number of his drawing hands, he just picked up a gutshot or open ended draw. But maybe he's still just drawing to hearts. He sticks out a blocking style be that is very indicative of a drawing hand. You call.

On the river. A number of draws come in. This is important if the villain is drawing, but it is also important if the villain thinks you are drawing. If the villain has an overpair, he only beats a bluff at this point. He leads out, maybe a value bet, maybe a blocking bet and you raise. Really, the only hands he can call you with are hands that beat 1 pair. But, you have reopened the betting with a 1 pair hand and put your stack at risk. It turns out that the villain somehow paid you off. Personally, I think it is because the villain out-misplayed you. But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say maybe you read this hand better than I did.

At the end of this, I think you ended up in a situation where the villain was totally incompetent. Limps KK. Doesn't raise. Check/raises on the flop, but then prices in any drawing hand on the turn. He can only hope you have QQ or JJ here and you'll pay him off. Proceeds to lead the river, when at best he can check/call. When you raise the river and he beats nothing, he still can't get away. He played a line that could only get value from 2 hands in your range.

[Fiasco]

[ QUOTE ]
Whats the villains hand range on the river? What hands are limp calling a raise other then a pair? What set plays it like this? i have the Ace of hearts.

Please give me an accurate range here given his turn and river bet sizes.

And Will someone answer me, why should i shove turn? I miss value from weaker and all stronger call me.

Maybe i really thought this out in a different way then you guys, and maybe I am not as good at poker as I thought. But i really thought that based on this guys action, this had to be a pair of like JJ to KK. I eliminated a set from his range on the river bet, and this is not a SC type of hand. This is he check raised the flop with a good hand hoping i folded, and is not happy i am still around and is making small bets to get to a cheap showdown. No one is betting that turn that small AND that river that small if they want to get the money in on the river.

So whats his range? I don't understand why I am being berated here.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) When were you berated? I didnt see that at all. Novel20 was berated.

2)Why did you make it $14 rather than $12 pf? Just curious.

3) He has KK, you have AA. You automatically get all his money. Anything failing this is a dissapointment.

4) Is he REALLY getting away from JJ-KK against a turn raise? Maybe JJ yes, but QQ or KK probably have to call because you can do this with JJ or several other hands.

He wanted a cheap showdown and you gave it to him.

5) His weak lead on the turn is (probably) either a draw or an overpair (or TPGK), youre ahead of all of these hands, and many of these hands wont be willing to get more money in on the river, so it has to go in now!

[Fiasco]

[ QUOTE ]
But if you raise all in on turn, his 44 would not call. This is like leaving money on the table! Is it okay to mix it up and play tricky sometimes to extract maximum value on river?

[ QUOTE ]
NLHE is NOT about tricking people by horribly misplaying your hand. Your object should not be to extract maximum value from the worst end of villains range.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
But if you raise all in on turn, his 44 would not call. This is like leaving money on the table!

[/ QUOTE ] I...I just cant tell if im getting leveled!! Oh, it burns. (playing along here) villain is not checkraising a large continuation bet on the flop with a pair under second pair. Assuming that he had done that, he would not continue putting chips into the pot on the turn. Assuming he had put chips into the pot on the turn HE WOULDNT CALL A RAISE ON THE RIVER WITH HIS TINY PAIR.

I generally hate it when people question someones right to post on a topic by asking what stakes they play at (the implication being that if you play at small stakes youre unfit to comment on anything that happens higher) but I seriously have to ask what kind of games youre playing in that you think that this hand is in his villains range, and you think that this is how to maximize.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it okay to mix it up and play tricky sometimes to extract maximum value on river?


[/ QUOTE ] The goal is to extract maximum value VERSUS VILLAINS RANGE (protecting your hand and not letting him draw cheap is another worthy goal). You do that by getting as much money into the pot as possible.


The goal isnt to hold his hand and skip merrily along a garden path towards value town. You gotta tie him to the back bumper of your car and drag him there driving as fast as possible. Yeah, sometimes the ropes will break and youll lose him, but you generally get him a lot closer to the destination.

Theres a good section in NLHT&P on maximizing expectation, you may want to look into that.