COLLEGE CHOICE----HELP

[Jake (The Snake)]

FWIW, I had the same choice 3 years ago and picked Georgetown without thinking about it very much. I definitely do not regret it.

I haven't read most of the thread but your situation is definitely different from mine. I grew up near NYC.

Personal preferences matter so much here. It would be easier to give you direction if you told us specific questions and specific things you want to get out of college. I'll say that the SFS is considered the most difficult and prestigious of the schools here.

[Dave D]

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imo, once you get past the top 5 or so schools academically, the primary concern should be enjoying college - atmosphere, location, etc. dave, you may be correct for someone heading to law school, but undergrad is about way more than academics.

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I definitly agree its about much more than academics, my point is more along the lines of you can have fun anywhere and you should be making the choice for the most competitive school if you're a top student. I had a great time at WF socially, as well as acedemically. Sure a random state school would be *more* fun, but I'm one of those people that thinks there is such a thing as too much fun, college isn't club med for 4 years etc.

If you seriously think there's a difference between #5 and #10 on US news, you're just wrong. Penn is the same as Harvard acedemically, it's all just (I guess?) penis waving at that point. The top 20 are all roughly comparable, maybe even the top 25. And I'm very skeptical about the state schools on the list, I always felt like they were included for political reasons. I've heard bad things about Berkeley (for example) just being an over crowded mess, difficult to register for classes, just not being that hard etc. The RESOURCES might be awesome there, but 18 year olds are dumb and need to be pushed and told what to do/learn to some extent, that I always felt like even the state schools on the list are lacking. In other words, the fact that you can breeze through at those schools without a lot of work is an indite, as opposed to most top privates you really can't.

[Dave D]

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Dave D,

I was going off general consensus with people I've talked to etc. It seems US News doesn't corroborate. I wanna say NYU was much higher when I started college 4 years ago. Now they are 34th which isn't good. Any ideas why?

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I don't think NYU was ever above Gtown on the list. I mean it's been a while, and I didn't apply to NYU in large part because I didn't want to go to such a massive school. It's also very expensive tution/cost of living wise. You might be right about NYU once being ranked above Gtown, but I doubt it. As I said in an earlier post, NYU was bankrupt (or close to it) in the early 70s. I don't think it has the name recognition other schools do, or the alumni base that a place like Georgetown does. There's a Georgetown grad on the Supreme Court (and no NYU grads) right? The tradition is there.

[Evan]

Okay, please learn to use the quote function and preview posts before you submit them. This was almost unreadable.

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It is my philosophy of education that it's about what you're taught

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There are very many people who would disagree with this.

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OP isn't from Mid America somewhere, he's from DC, a big metropolitan area. I think a lot of his possible learing "big city life" goes out the window right there.

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Big difference.

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We're all discussing opinions here aren't we? OP asked for advice and I'm giving mine. It's hard to do that without making some sort of value judgements about what college is

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The difference between saying "location wasn't important to me" and "location shouldn't be important to you" ought to be obvious. This isn't like saying "you should study for finals".

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The reality is that it's very easy to get distracted in a big city, and get caught up doing things that you don't need to go to college for. Granted, GTown is also in a big city, but it's not NYC in it's distraction capabilities (at least as far as I can tell), and Georgetown, from what I gather seems like a fairly insular place in that respect.

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Remember when I said some people value living in a major metropolitan area as a learning experience?

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So what you're saying is, he can't know where he'll be in 4 years, so he should go live in NYC because he doesn't know. That's circular logic.

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I don't know what exactly you think circular logic is, but it's not this. I never said he should live in NYC, I said that it was stupid to write off living in NYC as something he can do after college whenever he wants because that's simply not true.

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Saying "he doesn't know what will happen in 4 years" is the kind of thing you think about when you're planning what you're going to do with the year or two between college and law school, or in the few months before a job starts, not when choosing a college.

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Listen man, if you want to talk about the "sage advise" you're handing out here please don't say crap like this. You can't just make broad sweeping statements like "you don't do this" and expect to be taken seriously without any reasoning.

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Yeah I guess sarcastic humor is too much for you.

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That wasn't sarcastic and that wasn't humor. You just added "heh" to part of what I wrote. You need to reach a little further to get to humor.

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I was also getting at the fact that I live in Boston.

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No you weren't, not by the standards of any reasonable person.

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It's a little presumptuous to say it's the greatest city in the world isn't it?

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I specifically said America.

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Like many things, I believe that certain cities are on a tier with each other, and there isn't one that's greater than others, each has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

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Sure, each city has benefits. Don't try to tell me the top 10 cities are the same. By the way, you reminded me of this post.

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For the record, the difference is 23 and 34.

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Yea, I typed a 2 instead of a 3.

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I guess I wasn't clear about that, what I was basically trying to say is that within the top schools, I look at it as the first 20 are roughly the same quality, the next 10 are the same, the next 10 are the same, etc.

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I don't know how you could possibly think that was unclear. Especially considering that I used that exact idea to explain that given your system they're closer than I would expect considering that you believe there's a clear distinction. I have no particular opinion about this groups of 10 idea, but you suggested it. I think it sounds pretty random personally, but whatever.

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the point is still there, that NYU and Georgetown are seperated by a fairly significant margin.

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Uh, wtf man? I didn't apply to Georgetown so I'm not sure if I fall into that realm of intelligence, but I can damn well count to 10. I can even count to 11, so I know they're right next to each other. So just to be clear, are you telling me that Ranking 1 - Ranking 2 = 10 implies that the schools are pretty similar, but Ranking 1 - Ranking 2 = 11 implies that one is a clear choice and it would be a shame to pick the other? Please figure this out and get back to me.

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Especially when considering all the "ties", there's more than just 10 schools seperating them.

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Okay man, listen. You really need to look at this stuff closer. I feel like an idiot explaining this, but apparently it needs to be said. If there's a tie for the 27th spot, for example, the next tone would be 29, not 28. I don't know how you could not understand that, but I also don't know how you could think ties affect the numbers of items between two rankings.

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I think NYU is even where it is because it gets too much of a bump from being in NYC

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Can you at least admit that you might value this less than some people?

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Yes, some people definitely value going to a party school over all else, or "I have to be in Malibu" or "I have to be in SoCal", but those aren't good reasons for going to a school.

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Is this John Thompson's gimmick account? I mean, come on dude. Only advantage to New York City is parties? Give me a break.

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I think the average, intelligent, competitive student considers location (other than general geographic regions, like NE, Mid Atlantic, SE) as pretty minor factors. Otherwise you'd have people passing up Columbia for Maryland or something.

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Um, you would?

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I think Georgetown gets too much of a bump for having a good politics program. Politics isn't important to me and college isn't about politics. I think you're confusing the issue of which school is better and which one is better for you.

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Evidently it is important for him because the OP applied to, and got into, a very competitive politics program. He never mentioned business as an interest. Getting a bump for being acedemically "good" is better than getting a bump for where you happen to be located. I think Georgetown probably gets a bump for the fact that it's DC as well, there are so many opinions/viewpoints in that city, and it's right on the North/South dividing line (ok NOVA is the line, but whatever).

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Remember when you told me I didn't get sarcasm? Yea.

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(2)I know you hate considering the city around a school, since that's "not what college is about," but it's relevant here. Probably more relevant than alumni in terms of networking.

[/ QUOTE ]What it comes down to really is 'what's going to give me the most future options', not 'where can I have the most fun'. yes, I know that being in NYC and the advantages aren't just "fun" based, but lets be honest, that's what a lot of them are.

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Did you read the part you quoted? I was talking about the advantage of a bigger city for networking. You, apparently, thought it would be relevant to tell me NYC has lots of parties. Stop doing this. It's hard enough to read a post that looks like edward scissorhands did the tag nesting without having to go back up to see wtf someone is talking about.

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Here's one example: Fraternities. Your fraternity has an alumni event, lots of sucessful alumni come out. You talk to one in a field you're interested in, and he gives you his card. You've got a huge leg up over all the other applicants when it's time to apply for jobs.

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Okay. I go to a bar and meet some successful guy. He gives me his card. I bet I run into most people who would be beneficial to know in an average night out than you would at the average fraternity party in Georgetown.

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Aditionally, I think the name/prestige recognition on the resume will be better from Georgetown than NYU. I think NYU is a lot more regional, and everyone's heard of Georgetown, if only because of basketball recently.

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I have no idea which one people consider more prestigious, but I've never met anyone who hasn't heard of NYU.

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Additionally, schools maintain databases of alumni that call up and say "this summer I have room for 2 interns, feed me some" and such. Job fairs, stuff like that.

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Yea, again, I just wouldn't use the job recruiting line as a stance against NYU. That doesn't seem like your best play.

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Also its the type of people who go there. It is my opinion that the people you make friends with at Georgetown are more likely to have sucessful parents/friends that will hook you up in the future. It's just networking.

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That's great that it is your opinion, but until you post some reasoning it's not going to be much more than that.

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Even in that case though, NYU has got to have some sort of benefit just by having more graduates.

[/ QUOTE ]Only in NYC. I just don't think the name recognition is there outside of NYC. Also, more graduates doesn't mean they're quality graduates. I think Georgetown simply has more quality graduates.

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Again, I've never met anyone who doesn't recognize the name NYU. I have no idea what's considered more prestigious but I get the sense you don't either. Just out of curiosity, if NYU only has a relevant number of graduates in NYC, where would Georgetown's be located? Georgetown's undergrad population is listed at 6700. NYU's is 21,000. I doubt geographic coverage of graduates is an issue it makes a lot of sense for you to compete on. Quality graduates...I have no idea man. I'm not even sure what that means. Just volume of people in jobs you want?

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That was talking much more about the quality of the education. It's my impression that the big private schools are basically party schools that simply aren't that challenging acedemically. How challenging the acedemics are is my primary concern.

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I have no way of judging academics at other schools and it seems weird that you'd think you do. Please don't tell me again that he was asking for opinions. I know that. Still, I'm not sure he was asking for made up opinions. This isn't to say Georgwtown isn't a harder school, or even a much harder school, just that I don't really understand why you'd know that as it seems you haven't attended either.

[Evan]

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There's a Georgetown grad on the Supreme Court (and no NYU grads) right? The tradition is there.

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NYU
Georgetown

[Dave D]

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Okay, please learn to use the quote function and preview posts before you submit them. This was almost unreadable.


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I'll try. I haven't had a lot of these types of back and forth arguments that went on for lots of quoted text.

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It is my philosophy of education that it's about what you're taught

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There are very many people who would disagree with this.


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I know what you're getting at, but I think that kind of idea has its use in later years, like senior year. Look, you can't learn the quadratic formula by looking at cool buildings. Experiance is a great teacher, but classroom instruction with 15 students has its place, and I think is the vast majority of what needs to be taught in college. You have your whole life to "experiance", this is only 4 years (and maybe less if you go abroad for some time).

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OP isn't from Mid America somewhere, he's from DC, a big metropolitan area. I think a lot of his possible learing "big city life" goes out the window right there.

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Big difference.

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Sure there is, but not one to be basing a college decision about. Unless OP wants to live in NYC for the rest of his life. Then everything obviously becomes moot, and we're sorta not assuming that for the sake of argument.

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We're all discussing opinions here aren't we? OP asked for advice and I'm giving mine. It's hard to do that without making some sort of value judgements about what college is

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The difference between saying "location wasn't important to me" and "location shouldn't be important to you" ought to be obvious. This isn't like saying "you should study for finals".

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I disagree with this fundamentally. I'm saying its simply a bad idea to go to california, or florida, because the weather is nicer and the chicks are hotter. It's *a* consideration, but a 10% at best one. It's my opinion that that's how it should be for a good student. IF OP were considering GTown and Emory, or Emory and Vandy, or Brown and Princeton, THEN I start considering climate/location/what kind of city experiance I'm going to be having. Obviously this is my opinion, but I don't think it's unreasonable.

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The reality is that it's very easy to get distracted in a big city, and get caught up doing things that you don't need to go to college for. Granted, GTown is also in a big city, but it's not NYC in it's distraction capabilities (at least as far as I can tell), and Georgetown, from what I gather seems like a fairly insular place in that respect.

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Remember when I said some people value living in a major metropolitan area as a learning experience?

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So what you're saying is, he can't know where he'll be in 4 years, so he should go live in NYC because he doesn't know. That's circular logic.

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I don't know what exactly you think circular logic is, but it's not this. I never said he should live in NYC, I said that it was stupid to write off living in NYC as something he can do after college whenever he wants because that's simply not true.

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ok well I thought there was an implied "therefore" in there, I'm sorry. In that case, you've only tried to prove a negative. Just because he might not be able to live in NYC again, doesn't mean he should now. "I might not be able to live in NYC ever again" shouldn't be a real consideration, because like I said, I dont think he's going to have that hard of a time getting there with a Georgetown degree. At all.

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Saying "he doesn't know what will happen in 4 years" is the kind of thing you think about when you're planning what you're going to do with the year or two between college and law school, or in the few months before a job starts, not when choosing a college.

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Listen man, if you want to talk about the "sage advise" you're handing out here please don't say crap like this. You can't just make broad sweeping statements like "you don't do this" and expect to be taken seriously without any reasoning.

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We're all just giving our opinion here. My point is basically that his world is still wide open, everything is still possible. I don't percieve any doors closing by him going to Georgetown, that's what my point here boils down to. This isn't really a "reasoning" thing, it's an outlook on life.

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Yeah I guess sarcastic humor is too much for you.

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That wasn't sarcastic and that wasn't humor. You just added "heh" to part of what I wrote. You need to reach a little further to get to humor.

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Brevity is the soul of wit. The point was made, sorry if it didn't satisfy a word minimum.

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I was also getting at the fact that I live in Boston.

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No you weren't, not by the standards of any reasonable person.

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I think a lot of the dorm readers probably know I'm from Boston due to my posts in the past on similar topics like this one. Furthermore, my location says Suffolk Law, and Beacon Hill. At least the second is reasonably well known as being in Boston (and the Departed gave my law school a little bit of publicity).

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It's a little presumptuous to say it's the greatest city in the world isn't it?

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I specifically said America.

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Oops. Point is made the same though isn't it?

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Like many things, I believe that certain cities are on a tier with each other, and there isn't one that's greater than others, each has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

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Sure, each city has benefits. Don't try to tell me the top 10 cities are the same. By the way, you reminded me of this post.

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I didn't really say "the same", but we're talking about "greatest." That's a value judgement, and inherently subjective. All I'm saying is the top 10 cities (and you can even argue about what's in them), to me, are all roughly on equal footing in the overall "goodness" of them. As a sidenote, I see NYC's size as a major disadvantage, but I digress.

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For the record, the difference is 23 and 34.

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Yea, I typed a 2 instead of a 3.

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Just clarified it for other readers.

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I guess I wasn't clear about that, what I was basically trying to say is that within the top schools, I look at it as the first 20 are roughly the same quality, the next 10 are the same, the next 10 are the same, etc.

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I don't know how you could possibly think that was unclear. Especially considering that I used that exact idea to explain that given your system they're closer than I would expect considering that you believe there's a clear distinction. I have no particular opinion about this groups of 10 idea, but you suggested it. I think it sounds pretty random personally, but whatever.

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Sure, it's my personal opinion. But I think it holds water generally, at least as a framework. You can argue it should be groups of 15, but that's why I said "roughly."

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the point is still there, that NYU and Georgetown are seperated by a fairly significant margin.

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Uh, wtf man? I didn't apply to Georgetown so I'm not sure if I fall into that realm of intelligence, but I can damn well count to 10. I can even count to 11, so I know they're right next to each other. So just to be clear, are you telling me that Ranking 1 - Ranking 2 = 10 implies that the schools are pretty similar, but Ranking 1 - Ranking 2 = 11 implies that one is a clear choice and it would be a shame to pick the other? Please figure this out and get back to me.

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No, it's still not clear to you. What I am saying is ranges, clusters of 10 which are all roughly similar, although you can start saying #1 is a little better than 10, but not that significantly. SO, all the first 20 are the same, or maybe #1-15 get 9/10 stars, and 16-20 get 8/10 stars, BUT once you get to 21-30, you start all over. THUS, if given a choice between #15 and #30, I never choose 30. If given a choice between #10 and #21, I never choose 21, categorically. HOWEVER, if given a choice between 19 and 21, I'd consider it (but still lean heavily toward 19), and start thinking about how much money I'm getting thrown at. Arguing that 19 isn't really better than 21 is inditing the fact that the rankings are fuzzy more than inditing the ranking system itself. THUS, #34 is enough spots away from #23 that it's not a close call. Get it?

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Especially when considering all the "ties", there's more than just 10 schools seperating them.

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Okay man, listen. You really need to look at this stuff closer. I feel like an idiot explaining this, but apparently it needs to be said. If there's a tie for the 27th spot, for example, the next tone would be 29, not 28. I don't know how you could not understand that, but I also don't know how you could think ties affect the numbers of items between two rankings.

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I meant more in a "sum of its parts" sense. The fact that there's 4 way ties means that the 5th one ISN'T in the tie, and thus significantly behind them. I mean you could say no, they're still grouped together, whatever, this was more of a conjecture on my part. What I meant is that if 4 are the same, the 5th one, by not being a tie, must have had something decisive about it not to make it as such. This really is a minor point though.

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I think NYU is even where it is because it gets too much of a bump from being in NYC

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Can you at least admit that you might value this less than some people?

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Yes, some people definitely value going to a party school over all else, or "I have to be in Malibu" or "I have to be in SoCal", but those aren't good reasons for going to a school.

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Is this John Thompson's gimmick account? I mean, come on dude. Only advantage to New York City is parties? Give me a break.

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I don't know who that is. I'm not saying that the only advantage is parties. I was using SoCal etc as EXAMPLES to illustrate the point. I still take the stance that being in the city and all its advantages for one's "education" (in the Mark Twain I never let schooling interfere with my education) are secondary. Sorry Mark Twain, but that kind of education can be achieved after the 4 years of college (and I still think can be achieved, even at a middle of no where liberal arts college). I'm a believer of the build a groundwork and then put them out in the word concept of education. Also, practical "I can survive in the city" education is really only useful in certain spheres.

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I think the average, intelligent, competitive student considers location (other than general geographic regions, like NE, Mid Atlantic, SE) as pretty minor factors. Otherwise you'd have people passing up Columbia for Maryland or something.

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Um, you would?

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Yes. Or to make the analogy fit better you'd have people going to Queens College instead of Princeton because they want to be in NYC. Pretty sure that doesn't happen for top students. Location is a consideration, but not a big one.

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I think Georgetown gets too much of a bump for having a good politics program. Politics isn't important to me and college isn't about politics. I think you're confusing the issue of which school is better and which one is better for you.

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Evidently it is important for him because the OP applied to, and got into, a very competitive politics program. He never mentioned business as an interest. Getting a bump for being acedemically "good" is better than getting a bump for where you happen to be located. I think Georgetown probably gets a bump for the fact that it's DC as well, there are so many opinions/viewpoints in that city, and it's right on the North/South dividing line (ok NOVA is the line, but whatever).

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Remember when you told me I didn't get sarcasm? Yea.

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I didn't see the sarcasm because I thought you were making a legitimate point that Georgetown's rating might be too highly inflated by its reputation in the political science type world. Didn't really come off as being that sarcastic. I also maintain that I'd rather be overrated for that reason than the happenstance of where I was.

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(2)I know you hate considering the city around a school, since that's "not what college is about," but it's relevant here. Probably more relevant than alumni in terms of networking.

[/ QUOTE ]What it comes down to really is 'what's going to give me the most future options', not 'where can I have the most fun'. yes, I know that being in NYC and the advantages aren't just "fun" based, but lets be honest, that's what a lot of them are.

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Did you read the part you quoted? I was talking about the advantage of a bigger city for networking.

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Only inside NYC would you take advantage of that. Especially when all the grads are concentrated in that city.
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You, apparently, thought it would be relevant to tell me NYC has lots of parties. Stop doing this. It's hard enough to read a post that looks like edward scissorhands did the tag nesting without having to go back up to see wtf someone is talking about.

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It's not about parties, it's other stuff too. I wasn't just alluding to parties.

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Here's one example: Fraternities. Your fraternity has an alumni event, lots of sucessful alumni come out. You talk to one in a field you're interested in, and he gives you his card. You've got a huge leg up over all the other applicants when it's time to apply for jobs.

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Okay. I go to a bar and meet some successful guy. He gives me his card.


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You go to bars to meet dudes? That's cool by me, but I don't. More seriously, there's a big difference between an event which is more or less run around this idea, and randomly meeting someone out. One is "here's lots of people who want to help you" vs "I might maybe meet an NYU guy that might care about me." The connections are just fed to you.
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I bet I run into most people who would be beneficial to know in an average night out than you would at the average fraternity party in Georgetown.

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Yeah, ok, dozens (or more) of guys specifically looking to help their boys out. See above.

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Aditionally, I think the name/prestige recognition on the resume will be better from Georgetown than NYU. I think NYU is a lot more regional, and everyone's heard of Georgetown, if only because of basketball recently.

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I have no idea which one people consider more prestigious, but I've never met anyone who hasn't heard of NYU.

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How often do you travel around? Also, there's something about small schools that just makes it feel more prestigous and people have more respect for you, both alumni as well as random people. Most smaller school grads generally feel tighter with people they meet who are alumni, wheras the larger school people generally know "well, he's one of 25 THOUSAND". I know for example from my school that if I meet someone around my year, we start talking about common people we know and IMMEDIATLY build a rapport. I would recognize probably 90% of my class year's faces/names, and if I saw them out would probably talk to them (if I was bored). That kind of feeling just doesn't happen at big schools. 25k students at NYU just feels more like a degree mill, whereas if you meet someone from a place like Georgetown, you just assume smart. Theres a reason that George Washington (GW) is commonly known as "Georgetown Waitlist".

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Additionally, schools maintain databases of alumni that call up and say "this summer I have room for 2 interns, feed me some" and such. Job fairs, stuff like that.

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Yea, again, I just wouldn't use the job recruiting line as a stance against NYU. That doesn't seem like your best play.

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I'm pretty confident it is better. I'm also pretty confident it's more diverse, in more areas of the country etc.

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Also its the type of people who go there. It is my opinion that the people you make friends with at Georgetown are more likely to have sucessful parents/friends that will hook you up in the future. It's just networking.

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That's great that it is your opinion, but until you post some reasoning it's not going to be much more than that.

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I mean, would you dispute that for Yale? It might not be to the same degree at Georgetown, but I know its there. Neither of us are experts, we're just giving our opinions, but that's been my experiance.

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Even in that case though, NYU has got to have some sort of benefit just by having more graduates.

[/ QUOTE ]Only in NYC. I just don't think the name recognition is there outside of NYC. Also, more graduates doesn't mean they're quality graduates. I think Georgetown simply has more quality graduates.

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Again, I've never met anyone who doesn't recognize the name NYU. I have no idea what's considered more prestigious but I get the sense you don't either. Just out of curiosity, if NYU only has a relevant number of graduates in NYC, where would Georgetown's be located? Georgetown's undergrad population is listed at 6700. NYU's is 21,000. I doubt geographic coverage of graduates is an issue it makes a lot of sense for you to compete on. Quality graduates...I have no idea man. I'm not even sure what that means. Just volume of people in jobs you want?


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What I'm saying is that I'd rather have 2k graduates a year who have an avg salary of 55k, than 10k who have an avg of 40k (I'm obviously making up numbers here). More graduates doesn't help you get better jobs in the future. Quality over quantity.

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That was talking much more about the quality of the education. It's my impression that the big private schools are basically party schools that simply aren't that challenging acedemically. How challenging the acedemics are is my primary concern.

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I have no way of judging academics at other schools and it seems weird that you'd think you do.

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Talking to friends I trust at other schools.

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Please don't tell me again that he was asking for opinions. I know that. Still, I'm not sure he was asking for made up opinions. This isn't to say Georgwtown isn't a harder school, or even a much harder school, just that I don't really understand why you'd know that as it seems you haven't attended either.

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It's all anecdotal, sure I'll conceed that. But it's something I hear time and again. Friends/people I talk to who go to large schools consistantly say it's easy, people who go to small schools dont (assuming similar acedemic ranking, obviously a small low ranked school won't be as hard). There's a few exceptions, but for the most part its been my experiance. That's the point of this forum, to give our experiances.

[Evan]

You win the battle of super long replies. I'm just going to say that I fundamentally disagree with you about a lot of things you've said and leave it at that.


By the way, you can nest ubb tags like you can nest html tags.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>

more stuff

</pre><hr />

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stuff

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more stuff

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[vin17]

Dave,

Damn.

[4ObliVioN4]

Dave, that is the longest post I have ever seen. Congrats.

[Evan]

I copied Dave's post into Word just out of curiosity. It came out to 14 pages.