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#31
10-26-2007, 01:33 AM
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Re: help i suck
[ QUOTE ]
er, i lol'ed at the comment. i was just imagining how great it would be if trashtalking were part of a coach's curriculum [/ QUOTE ] lol, oh [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] i dont know why, but i am ultra sensitive today. it's like a period or something. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] 
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#32
10-26-2007, 01:43 AM
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Re: help i suck
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] just open shove the turn, its what id do [/ QUOTE ] this isn't very good at all [/ QUOTE ]win 20BI at 2.00/4.00 in a few wks and now ur apparently rhe authority on nl, lolol [/ QUOTE ] fair point, but at 2/4 players are terrible at balancing for the most part [/ QUOTE ] fwiw, it would help for you to maybe explain why it's terrible, but to me it looks like this is our one shot at making a pair fold. if he has better then that (say QQ+) he's not going anywhere. our hand has too much equity to c/f, and the consensus is that c/r is bad because villain will pot commit himself with the same stuff we're trying to fold out. (as in, top pair, underpair, whatever) I'd likely stack a donk here with a real hand, some of the time, and I agree, balancing is moot. So, we're looking in a vacuum how to maximize EV this hand, and the answer IF WHAT IS ABOVE IS TRUE is to bet. For me, with these stack sizes, alot of bets are awkward given how much would be left behind and for the river, like if you bet too small it could look like you're pricing yourself in or setting a cheap showdown (and could get moved in, which would eliminate any FE and reduce your situation to a gamble you must take but it hikes up variance) and alot of "bigger" bets are pretty similar to this. so again, i just shove and am happy doing so. [/ QUOTE ] to me there's a fundmental incongruity in what you just said - namely that something like 88 is going to call a c/r but not a shove. i suppose by betting, 88 isn't giving up (i.e. isn't turning his hand into a bluff), but a c/r shows much more strength than an open shove, esp when villain has shown no strength by merely calling the flop. can hero really have a hand worse than what he's actually got there (a semi bluff with a million outs?) can he be c/r shoving w/ AK high? I doubt it. But he can certainly open shove turn with AK high.
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#33
10-26-2007, 01:48 AM
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Re: help i suck
[ QUOTE ]
to me there's a fundmental incongruity in what you just said - namely that something like 88 is going to call a c/r but not a shove. [/ QUOTE ] here's why it's not: he's getting a bad price when you open shove, so you need air/semibluff alot more often (or, decent amount more) for a call to be correct vs when he bets the turn. He only needs 24% equity vs a turn c/r to call vs 39% against an open shove. [ QUOTE ] i suppose by betting, 88 isn't giving up (i.e. isn't turning his hand into a bluff), but a c/r shows much more strength than an open shove, esp when villain has shown no strength by merely calling the flop. can hero really have a hand worse than what he's actually got there (a semi bluff with a million outs?) [/ QUOTE ] why not? Do you get in this dynamic alot? I don't. Opponents will guess wrong, but the only way to let them guess wrong is to set them up for a position to do so. [ QUOTE ] can he be c/r shoving w/ AK high? I doubt it. But he can certainly open shove turn with AK high. [/ QUOTE ] Uhhh if he can c/r shove w/ AK high he can open shove AK high and vica versa. I dont think not doing one precludes someone from not doing the other, or whatever that logical fallacy is.
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#34
10-26-2007, 02:10 AM
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Re: help i suck
re: your first point - true, but there's so many more bluffs in your range at that point.
re: your second - no i am not in that spot v often but i am cognizant of stack sizes and try not to get in it if i can avoid it. re: your third - i don't understand at all. i don't think i'm making any logical fallacies, just stating how i think that the range for c/ring turn is way smaller than the range for open shoving it.
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#35
10-26-2007, 02:12 AM
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Re: help i suck
[ QUOTE ]
this is definitely played ok [/ QUOTE ]
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#36
10-26-2007, 02:39 AM
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Re: help i suck
You should challenge him to 25/50 HU after he has completely owned you and get it AI PF w/ 9 high. Then, after you suck out, you should sit out even though you agreed to at least a 10 min. warning
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#37
10-26-2007, 02:50 AM
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Re: help i suck
[ QUOTE ]
You should challenge him to 25/50 HU after he has completely owned you and get it AI PF w/ 9 high. Then, after you suck out, you should sit out even though you agreed to at least a 10 min. warning [/ QUOTE ] but his 9 high hand was suited! also you didnt see what villian mucked there he could have had worse pre
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#38
10-26-2007, 02:54 AM
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Re: help i suck
esp with the extra $100 in your stack, bet like $200 here is better than shove, since the difference in FE is marginal, and certainly doesnt make up for the fact that you lose an extra $400 a lot (and hes gonna call a river shove on a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] river a lot since its bd anyway if he does call the turn).
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#39
10-26-2007, 03:36 AM
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Re: help i suck
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] can he be c/r shoving w/ AK high? I doubt it. But he can certainly open shove turn with AK high. [/ QUOTE ] Uhhh if he can c/r shove w/ AK high he can open shove AK high and vica versa. I dont think not doing one precludes someone from not doing the other, or whatever that logical fallacy is. [/ QUOTE ] i dont agree and also fwiw... if i had the AQ i prob would have led the turn again but after reading this thread i think im in the c/r camp...b/c im not so sure he's "pot-committed" with 88 if villain faces a crai after betting the turn, since hero looks soo strong...yeah he's getting like 3-1 but if he's convinced he's beat i dont think he's gonna chase a probable 2-outer i think that hero's decision comes down to what villain does with a T...would he fold a T to a turn lead but make a crying call with the T if hero c/r's? if so, obv lead turn >>> crai. But given that there's 2 possible FDs out there, depending on hero's image yada yada im not sure if he's folding a ten no matter what we do...in which case c/r is better to fold out small pp's + win more monies in case villain is floating and how come no ones discussed what happens if we decide to check turn and villain checks behind?
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#40
10-26-2007, 04:10 PM
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Re: help i suck
[ QUOTE ]
i think that hero's decision comes down to what villain does with a T...would he fold a T to a turn lead but make a crying call with the T if hero c/r's? if so, obv lead turn >>> crai. But given that there's 2 possible FDs out there, depending on hero's image yada yada im not sure if he's folding a ten no matter what we do...in which case c/r is better to fold out small pp's + win more monies in case villain is floating [/ QUOTE ] no one folds a ten. you'd have to be really, really terrible to bet fold top pair in that spot.
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