The John Kerry / Pickens challenge - Swift Boat ads true after all?

[Max Raker]

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Maybe, but did anybody really not vote for Kerry because of the swift boat thing?

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5 people that I personally knew. I tried talking sense into them, but....what can you do?

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Wow, i can think of like a hundred better reasons to not vote for him, and I wanted him to win...

[TomVeil]

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Maybe, but did anybody really not vote for Kerry because of the swift boat thing?

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5 people that I personally knew. I tried talking sense into them, but....what can you do?

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Wow, i can think of like a hundred better reasons to not vote for him, and I wanted him to win...

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That's what I thought, myself. I find it sad that the Dems ran the only person on the entire planet who could lose to Bush. To be fair, 3 of the 5 of these guys were Vietnam vets, so I guess that it mattered a little bit more to them?

[4 High]

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swift boats or slow boats the only way we would be more screwed than we are now would be if the D bag had of won.

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How in the world can anyone say this after the past 2 plus years?

[ElliotR]

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swift boats or slow boats the only way we would be more screwed than we are now would be if the D bag had of won.

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How in the world can anyone say this after the past 2 plus years?

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They've lost their minds because their beloved GWB has turned out to be such a miserable failure.

[bdk3clash]

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Earlier this month T. Boone Pickens challenged anyone to prove that there were material falsehoods in the ads run by the Swift Boat veterans, as is widely repeated by the media.

Well, John Kerry has accepted the challenge. See the exchange of letters between them (PDF).

Has any real proof ever been shown that the ads were materially incorrect, or have the media and Kerry supporters been falsifying the truth about campaign 2004 abd the truthfulness of the Swift Boaters?

Can John Kerry prove falsehoods here?

If he can not, how can we continue to use the term "Swift boating" whenever soneone is attacked? The truth is the truth, and if the Swift boaters were telling the truth, we have all been had.

What do you think? Can Kerry prove it?

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Un-[censored]-believable. Kerry offered to meet Pickens' own challenges. Pickens "staked one million dollars" that "no one" could "prove anything the Swift Boat Veterans for truth said in 2004 was false" and he offered "a million dollars to anyone who could prove wrong anything the Swiftboat Veterans charged about Kerry."

Perhaps realizing how trivially easy satisfying these challenges would be, Pickens decides to go back on his word and issue a new challenge for Kerry (now referring to his challenge as "yours" [Kerry's]!), demanding Kerry's Vietnam journal, his military record from 1971 to 1978, and "copies of all movies and tapes made during your service."

After Kerry provides all of this material to Pickens' (unspecified) standards, he then has to "prove anything in the ads was materially untrue." Note the challenge has been shifted from demonstrating what "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth said in 2004" was false to demonstrating that claims from "the ads" were "materially untrue." (Again, Pickens apparently gets to decide what "materially untrue" means.)

Perhaps Pickens had forgotten and then remembered the many public statements the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth made that were demonstrably false.

I can see only two possible conclusions: Pickens knew Kerry could easily satisfy his original challenge and chose to move the goalposts far, far back, or Pickens stands by his initial challenge but doesn't have a million dollars "staked." Either way he's a douchebag and a liar.

[JackWhite]

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Un-[censored]-believable. Kerry offered to meet Pickens' own challenges. Pickens "staked one million dollars" that "no one" could "prove anything the Swift Boat Veterans for truth said in 2004 was false" and he offered "a million dollars to anyone who could prove wrong anything the Swiftboat Veterans charged about Kerry."

Perhaps realizing how trivially easy satisfying these challenges would be, Pickens decides to go back on his word and issue a new challenge for Kerry (now referring to his challenge as "yours" [Kerry's]!), demanding Kerry's Vietnam journal, his military record from 1971 to 1978, and "copies of all movies and tapes made during your service."

After Kerry provides all of this material to Pickens' (unspecified) standards, he then has to "prove anything in the ads was materially untrue." Note the challenge has been shifted from demonstrating what "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth said in 2004" was false to demonstrating that claims from "the ads" were "materially untrue." (Again, Pickens apparently gets to decide what "materially untrue" means.)

Perhaps Pickens had forgotten and then remembered the many public statements the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth made that were demonstrably false.

I can see only two possible conclusions: Pickens knew Kerry could easily satisfy his original challenge and chose to move the goalposts far, far back, or Pickens stands by his initial challenge but doesn't have a million dollars "staked." Either way he's a douchebag and a liar.


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I'm pretty sure he has a million dollars. This is the guy that gave 165 million to Oklahoma State. Just to humor everyone, can you list the lies in the Swift Boat ads. I must admit that I haven't followed this story, so I honestly don't know what all the charges were. What did they say that was a lie?

[bdk3clash]

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Un-[censored]-believable. Kerry offered to meet Pickens' own challenges. Pickens "staked one million dollars" that "no one" could "prove anything the Swift Boat Veterans for truth said in 2004 was false" and he offered "a million dollars to anyone who could prove wrong anything the Swiftboat Veterans charged about Kerry."

Perhaps realizing how trivially easy satisfying these challenges would be, Pickens decides to go back on his word and issue a new challenge for Kerry (now referring to his challenge as "yours" [Kerry's]!), demanding Kerry's Vietnam journal, his military record from 1971 to 1978, and "copies of all movies and tapes made during your service."

After Kerry provides all of this material to Pickens' (unspecified) standards, he then has to "prove anything in the ads was materially untrue." Note the challenge has been shifted from demonstrating what "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth said in 2004" was false to demonstrating that claims from "the ads" were "materially untrue." (Again, Pickens apparently gets to decide what "materially untrue" means.)

Perhaps Pickens had forgotten and then remembered the many public statements the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth made that were demonstrably false.

I can see only two possible conclusions: Pickens knew Kerry could easily satisfy his original challenge and chose to move the goalposts far, far back, or Pickens stands by his initial challenge but doesn't have a million dollars "staked." Either way he's a douchebag and a liar.


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I'm pretty sure he has a million dollars. This is the guy that gave 165 million to Oklahoma State. Just to humor everyone, can you list the lies in the Swift Boat ads. I must admit that I haven't followed this story, so I honestly don't know what all the charges were. What did they say that was a lie?

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I don't know what claims were made exclusively in the ads versus public statements. I do know, for example, that on Fox News, John O'Neill stated "There's not a bullet hole in any of those three boats, not one," directly contradicting the official damage report, which detailed ""three 30 cal bullet holes about super structure."

[Felix_Nietzsche]

Kerry has a long record of lying about his Vietnam service.
In his autobiography, he claims he was in Cambodia listening to Nixon that their were no troops in Camobodia. This lie was easily exposed because Nixon was not president during Kerry's 4 months on combat in Vietnam. Then when Kerry returned to the USA, he spread many lies about alledged attrocities committed by US troops only later to back track on the statements he said.

Plain and simple Kerry is an opportunistic scumbag. He touts his Vietnam service while withholding much of his war records. When his detractors attack him for withholding his military records, he spins the accusations around touting about the records he ha already released. T.Boone is smart to ask him to release this records as part of the deal. If these records made Kerry look good, they would have been released to help his presidency. By process of elimination, these records probably are not that flattering to John Kerry......

As for the Swift Boat accusations, the best Kerry has done was produce one or two witnesses to contradict the several witnesses that accuse him of cowardice and lying. In terms of mathemetics, the anti-Kerry witness are more numerous and based on Kerry's past lies....more credible. I seriously wonder if Kerry bribed these one or two guys....

Facts:
*Kerry holds the Vietnam Swift Boat Veterans record for shortest time in a combat zone. 4 months. Excluding KIA and wounded who had a legit reason to leave combat...
*In Kerry's 4 months of 'combat', he successfully alienated most of his fellow soldiers to the point where they still hate him today. This takes a special talent...
*Kerry used every flea-bite injury as an excuse to get a purple heart. His detractors claim this was a tactic so he could get his three purple hurts and qualify for an early discharge.

Kerry is blowing hot air....
He has no intention of addressing T.Boone's challenge. He will keep those military records a secret so he can retain sme plausible deniability about the Swifties allegations... Kerry's chest thumping is as phony as he is. He gets some positive PR from the "Boston Globe" saying he is going to meet these allegations head on and then he goes back to playing the victim claiming he was 'swift-boated'. Truly pathetic....just like Kerry...