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  #21  
Old 10-02-2007, 07:07 PM
MDMA MDMA is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2007, 07:21 PM
ZeeJustin ZeeJustin is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

[ QUOTE ]
Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?
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  #23  
Old 10-02-2007, 07:23 PM
jcmoussa jcmoussa is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

[ QUOTE ]
Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

C/c c/c ???
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2007, 07:23 PM
mastr mastr is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

because we're smoked a ton and its a real bad spot to put more chips in not to mention the chance he 3-bets off the best hand with his AK.. chk/call every street seems solid to me
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  #25  
Old 10-02-2007, 07:26 PM
MDMA MDMA is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

Basically, with 300bb deep, and the read that he VERY likely had a monster from the pf-action/body language, how would you really feel getting 3-bet against a guy you know probably never ever bluffs in that spot, and has a range of AA,KK and AK, where you cannot at safely deduct that AA/KK 3-bets and AK calls. I would basically throw up in that spot and curse myself for checkraisng in the first place.
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2007, 07:33 PM
ZeeJustin ZeeJustin is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, with 300bb deep, and the read that he VERY likely had a monster from the pf-action/body language, how would you really feel getting 3-bet against a guy you know probably never ever bluffs in that spot, and has a range of AA,KK and AK, where you cannot at safely deduct that AA/KK 3-bets and AK calls. I would basically throw up in that spot and curse myself for checkraisng in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a super aggressive high stakes cash game. And it's live. I'm not going broke here ever. I don't think he's 3 betting AK on this flop.
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  #27  
Old 10-02-2007, 07:53 PM
imjustlucky1 imjustlucky1 is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

the fact that he doesnt seem upset or even a little fazed by the floor ruling it a raise instead of a call would really worry me..if he had JJ/QQ or that type of hand that he genuinely wanted to show down cheap and not raise, i think it would show in how he handled himself there

im thinking call turn, check riv. and really consider folding if he gets crazy
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  #28  
Old 10-02-2007, 07:55 PM
Prevaricator Prevaricator is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

[ QUOTE ]
Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya i was thinking the same thing
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  #29  
Old 10-02-2007, 08:11 PM
Eagles Eagles is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Havent read the replies, but I was appalled when I read zeejusting wanted to c/r the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya i was thinking the same thing

[/ QUOTE ]
Completely agree. Once you get to the turn I think its a fold.... an angle seems very unlikely.
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  #30  
Old 10-02-2007, 08:15 PM
MDMA MDMA is offline
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Default Re: Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

Okay, so you have an easy fold to a 3-bet then, let's say that. Then what are you c/r:ing for? You feel comfortable in that you can c/r and get 3 streets of value out of exactly AK, this granted that he NEVER raises AK on flop, and that he ALWAYS raises AA/KK on flop so that you have perfect information and never get (unintentionally) bluffed/call of against a better hand?

I'm just not seeing the point in check/raising, the ONLY sense would be to get 3 streets of value and stack AK. Does he really go broke with that, and even if he does, can you be sure that he does that on as many cards you would consider blank enough to fire river so that he does not only stack of with AA/KK making your riverbet completely horrible?

How about if he has AQ/AJ then (very unlikely given PF and basically hands I assumed you disregarded when you said you got your suspicions verified), what kind of point is there to c/r against this range? He probably folds turn if he's the average nit, so against those hands, unless very bad calls falls off, you probably get his CB on flop, and, assuming hes the average live nit, he checks behind turn and you get a bet in on river, essentially the same or even slightly more money than you'd get by checkraising flop granted you wouldn't get called on turn. Yeah, sometimes some random backdoor 4-straight will arrive and you won't get a riverbet but then so be it, it's not a concern, especially since these hands very basically dismissed anyway.

The fact that you have narrowed down his range into basically AA, KK, AK, QQ and perhaps JJ basically makes a c/r really crappy with these stacks here; QQ/JJ he's at best bet/folding (and probably checking if he's smart but most people blindly CB anyway), and then you are left with AA, KK, AK, against which checkraising makes no sense unless you feel you can make perfect decisions, never get stacked, and get 3 streets of value against AK checkraising the flop, which seems fairly unlikely given I'd assume he'd cold-call with all these 3-hands to a checkraise very often, and if you are even slightly wrong about him always calling all 3 holdings all the way to river, the fact he you have 6 combos of AA/KK and 8 combos of AK could very fast turn your 3-street value into crap, especially since you checkraised with 3 people in the hand, and the fact that AA/KK can easier call on all 3 streets since its less vulnerable than AK and thus certain cards could scare him off, i.e running pairs for example, although I'll admit that last part is not a huge consideration. Add to the extreme thinness of such a range the fact that it is a tournament and you probably quickly end up taking an overall -EV line since doubling up is not even close worth doing on a "8 to 6 shot" at BEST with so many uncertain factors.

It's also not like you have to defend your hand 3-ways given the very dry flop, and even disregarding that, defending your hand from getting outdrawn would not really be as important as not ending up taking a line against a range as strong as AA/KK/AK where you would most likely end up losing the most when your dead and winning at least not more than you would with a more passive line when you are ahead, and effectively end your tournament 300bb deep on a slim-at-best chance to double your stack.

Just the fact that check/calling 3 streets would probably generate 3 streets of value (albeit of course not as big as if you checkraised of course) from AK easily compared to risking him only calling a turnbet after a checkraise with AA/KK, and at least definitely risking him only calling a riverbet with the hands that beat you, and you end up winning at least the same with the check/call against AK and risking winning even less if he folds to the turnbet.
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