A typical AK whiff hand 10/20

[jfk]

10/20 online, currently five handed.

Cutoff is an unknown, has not done anything to out of line and seems solid.

Button is a very a loose, aggressive, unorthodox player who is a devoted shot taker and knows me to have a more conventional game.

Folded to the CO who opens
Button three bets.
Hero caps with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Both call.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero checks,
CO checks
Button bets
Hero raises
CO folds
button calls

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero bets
CO calls

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero checks
Button checks

Comments on all streets appreciated. I need help with my shorthanded play. The river felt wrong. Would it be expected for an opponent like this to call a bet with A high five handed in a pot this size (10 1/2BB)?

[vortex86]

i would say if you cap preflop you always have to bet the flop (when its 3-handed)

[Buffsta8]

hmm fairly poorly played hand to be honest. The cap pre flop is standard (although you can also make a case for cold calling) I think the flop check is fine here actually despite what vortex86 says. The flop is soo bad for your hand and so likely to have hit the other players that it may not be worth investing any more money especially if the cutoff leads and button raises or similar action. As it stands a check call seems a much better solution than checkraise here as you figure to be behind and dont want to be betting/raising blind into this field. The best scenario possible then occurs ie cutoff folding and button calling(hoping for both 2 fold is of course highly unreasonable) and you are forced to lead the turn across him
giving him the opportunity of raising you and probably with little chance of folding out his hand. You then check the river but still don't know if he has a busted draw or any pair and so are probably forced to call his bet given the size of the pot. I think check call and check fold on the turn without improvement is probably a better line. If he has a draw he may even check behind on the turn giving you a chance to either valuebet or induce a bluff on the river depending on card/opponent. Betting the flop and seeing what happens is also better than check/raising in my opinion

the nature of this board makes it a far from typical AK whiff for what its worth [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[kapw7]

I don't think it's poor play. I don't like at all a check-call on the flop.
On the river his hand looks like A-hi or a small PP, I think he would push more one of the possible draws.

[disjunction]

I like the flop, I like the river. I think I prefer a check/call on the turn, I don't know what the bet achieves.

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what the bet achieves.

[/ QUOTE ]

It continues the story that I'm squared away with at least an overpair. I'd like to win this big pot right here and I can't do that by checking. Perhaps he'll move off a seven outer like KQ or even something like A8.

I also get the sense that he'd bet nearly anything if I check the turn. He's going to give me credit for a turn bet, though in hindsight I admit he's only possibly folding a small range (AQ, KQ, Ax, small pocket pair).

[Entity]

The whole hand seems hopelessly optimistic to me. You aren't going to make a better hand fold here nor will a hand like KQ. When you say Button is "very loose" preflop, can you assign him a range of 3betting hands? Is this just like A8s+, KT+, or is it a wide range like A3o, K5s, etc? Either way you're rarely doing much better than 33% equity on this flop 3ways and while it's nice to try to protect your hand, you really have to ask what sort of hands raise preflop, call a cap, then checkfold this flop for 2 bets (as opposed to betting out).

Rob

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
When you say Button is "very loose" preflop, can you assign him a range of 3betting hands? Is this just like A8s+, KT+, or is it a wide range like A3o, K5s, etc? Either way you're rarely doing much better than 33% equity on this flop 3ways and while it's nice to try to protect your hand, you really have to ask what sort of hands raise preflop, call a cap, then checkfold this flop for 2 bets (as opposed to betting out).

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply. The button's range would be the latter. He'd 3 bet any ace, many kings and a lot of medium suited connectors. I've seen him isolate with J8s in full ring. The flop play was primarily designed to define the strength of the CO's hand. I knew the button would bet if it was checked to him.

Neither calling nor leading preflop seemed to accomplish anything. This may be an expense line, but I figured that if I could lose the cutoff, my equity spikes quite a bit.

Once that line was established, and I was HU, I knew the button would have to put me on an ovepair or better. As such, I felt compelled to bet because I thought it would be my best opportunity to end the hand.

Had the cutoff come along, I can't put any more money in the pot unimproved. The button not showing strength on the flop indicated to me that I was in decent shape. I did plan to fold to a button turn raise.

Results in white: <font color="white">...button showed ATo. </font>

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]
I did plan to fold to a button turn raise.

Results in white: <font color="white">...button showed </font>

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is another reason your flop c/r comes useful. By investing 1 extra SB on the flop you show a lot of strength and villain will not try to raise the turn with... let's say ATo, as he knows he has little if any FE.
I think if you bet out on the flop and he smooth calls then if you decide to fire again on the turn he is semibluff raising the turn with a high frequency and then you will have to make the hard decision of spending 2 more BB or folding on a big pot.

I'm a strong believer that you need to play AK very strongly against non passive opponents (otherwise why cap preflop and c-c the flop - would you do this with AA?) but also be brave enough to let it go when you are clearly beat.

[Buffsta8]

My apologies I didn't see the button is very loose description when I first read this post which gives a lot more credibility to this play if the assigned range of any ace and lots of kings comes into play. I still think its very hard for us to actually move a better hand off this pot as a player who fits the description of the button will call down with a small pp against us and pray we have ATs AQ or AK. I think the line of checkraise instead of bet-3bet which is clearly what we would do with big pocket pairs means an experienced hand reader can probably define our hand a little better and maybe put us on the exact thought process we have in this hand ie flop isn't that good but button is terrible lets try isolate his Ax and win unimproved whilst moving CO off his hand by facing him with 2 bets cold on the flop.
Against reasonable opposition I still contend our equity on a j98 flop is quite poor with AK and maybe my original advice would be more applicable then [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]