Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?

[HobbyHorse]

Here was the situation that prompted the thought:
$3/6 Limit Hold'em at B&M casino (Canterbury)

Me - button (A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])

I of course raise and the SB and middle player both call.
Flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and two random cards for a rainbow flop.

The two other players check to me. With my trip Aces, I bet and the two players again call.

Turn card is Jack [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Both players check to me and I figure something is up here and they are chasing and all I can do is bet my $6. They both call me again.

River card is another diamond. First player checks, second one bets, I call, first player raises, second player reraises, and I fold because it's obvious that one of them has made the flush.

Question: is it just the nature of limit hold'em that this will happen where my hand is leading throughout and it is impossible to chase anyone else out of the pot by betting since it is essentially only one small bets that they are able to manage by simply check/calling?

2) Doesn't limit hold'em encourage this kind of chasing - and by encourage, i.e., is more profitable, because your opponent can't really bet in a way that messes up the odds for the other players? For this reason, shouldn't suited and/or connected cards be valued more highly in limit hold'em - perhaps even more so than pocket pairs?

If this issue has already been discussed and people are sick of it, sorry - and could you just redirect me to that earlier thread discussing this.

Thanks from a newbie. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[dafreak]

The one thing about limit is that it is cheap (relatively speaking) to chase flush/straight draws. The good news is that you can make money from people chasing those draws, especially people who will chase backdoor flush/straight draws and gutshots.

[skelm]

Although you've been outdrawn here this will make money over time - Just don't let this one hand slow you down next time this situation props up again. You played a good line here and i'd stick to it.

[Frond]

Welcome.

You played it prefectly and got sucked out on. In a way you want this kind of bad chasing against you in LHE. Like the other said, don't let this one result change the way you would play this hand. EVER! You have to get used to these beats cause they come along in limit hold em games. But also, get used to winning a big pot more often than not with this hand with this board.

Good luck

[R18A1I4]

NL and Limit hand values are very similar. So no, big drawing hands can't be prefered over pocket aces... if I had to pick any one hand to get over and over again it would be AA, not 10J suited or something. Drawing hands can be valuable though... very much so.

Example: The other day playing my local 3/6 game... I had 6d8d on the button, this table happened to be very passive and the gentlemen on the blinds were total donks.

4 people in front of me and I'm sure the 2 behind are just calling, so I call this moderate 1 gapped SC. The flop was 7c 9d Qd. Huge draw for me... SB bets... EVERYONE calls so of course I'm going to call right? Wrong... I RAISE for vaule... paying an extra 3 bucks now to make a whole lot more when I hit... this was done KNOWING that I

1. Would not get raised, and
2. Would get called by everyone

...I hit the flush on the turn, SB bet, I raised, he and the BB called. River was a blank, he bet again, I raised again and he and the BB called and I dragged a massive pot.

Moral, with that kind of potential leading into the turn, my hand had more equity than pocket pairs becuase all of my straight and flush outs were live.


And just to reinforce what everyone else said, do not play that hand differently from now on because "you'll just get sucked out again." You must keep getting your money in there because if you begin just checking hands down and not forcing people to mistakenly chase draws according to given odds, they aren't paying you any of the money that you should be making.

[Frond]

Yea, don't ever get passive with big pairs. I see this alot when guys just limo in with them and end up winning the pot. They just don't have a clue that the pot that they just won should have been a lot bigger than it was.

PS. Don't ever coach these players either ever.

[HobbyHorse]

In the interests of full disclosure, I should admit that I am a bit of a chaser myself - and like your story - it seems that (more often than not) when I'm chasing and hit it, it's always a huge pot versus when I have pocket pairs.

I understand the concepts of pot odds and hand rankings based on mathematics, but if there is really no defense in limit games against chasing - what can you do other than bet once and you will simply be called down until the chaser either makes their hand or doesn't and gives up - then why isn't chasing the flushes/straights considered more of a viable strategy? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[gobbledygeek]

[ QUOTE ]
In the interests of full disclosure, I should admit that I am a bit of a chaser myself - and like your story - it seems that (more often than not) when I'm chasing and hit it, it's always a huge pot versus when I have pocket pairs.

I understand the concepts of pot odds and hand rankings based on mathematics, but if there is really no defense in limit games against chasing - what can you do other than bet once and you will simply be called down until the chaser either makes their hand or doesn't and gives up - then why isn't chasing the flushes/straights considered more of a viable strategy? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE explains all of this in-depth, I'd recommend reading it.

In a nutshell, try to face the field with bets that make it mathematically incorrect for those chasing to call. For example, if preflop raiser is to your left then lead the flop on a vulernable leading hand hoping the raiser will face the field with 2 bets. Or if preflop raiser is to your right then go for the checkraise. Or perhaps wait for a safer turn card before attempting this sorta stuff (where there are a zillion turn cards that could kill your hand). Some of those chasing will have correct odds to continue (you almost always do chasing an open ended straight draw or flush draw); you just gotta make them pay as much as possible so when they miss you win as much as you can. And some will still incorrectly chase their longshots and suck out on you from time to time, but you still win in the long run when they do this cuz eventually (long long term eventually) the numbers will approach their expected value and they'll be making the long term losing play while you'll be making the long term winning play.

I guess the only question I have regarding this strategy is whether I will ever play enough poker hands over my life time to have all the numbers approach their expected values. In other words, if I played perfectly over an infinite amount of time I'd come out a winner (and that's a big IF I played perfectly, cuz I don't [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]); but over a mere life time I think a lot of it is simply going to be left up to luck.

G0.5BB/hourcluelessnoobG

[R18A1I4]

The answer your looking for is that there are two kinds of chasing... chasing when you have pot odds, and chasing when you don't. So mathematically it's correct to chase an open ended straight when you're getting 5-1 or better but not when you're only getting 4-1. You may drag big pots by hitting a chase you shouldn't have been in the search for, and you feel good at the time, but statistically you will lose money over a long period of time by wasting those bets without sufficient odds.

[HobbyHorse]

Thanks for the recommendation - I've been reading the Theory of Poker and once I'm done with that I will be on to SSHE.