quick flop check-up, KQs whiffs (5/10)

earlytimes1 · #1 06-04-2007, 02:25 PM

no great reads, table has generally been playing loose-passive.

c-bet this flop, or throw in the towel?

Full Tilt 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)

SeaEagle · #2 06-04-2007, 03:01 PM

Somewhat read dependent. Against normal people I'd c-bet and plan to put in another bet on a safe turn. This is a good flop for you, since your opponents likely missed it.

KQ is probably at the bottom of your UTG raising range. Your opponents will not want to call you to the river with just overs because they'll expect to lose to your AK or high/medium PP too often.

However, if you're at a table that's so L/P that virtually all pots are getting shown down, you may as well check and see if you can get to the turn for free.

tyler_cracker · #3 06-04-2007, 03:06 PM

if you aren't cbetting this trashy flop, when are you cbetting?

earlytimes1 · #4 06-04-2007, 03:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you aren't cbetting this trashy flop, when are you cbetting?

[/ QUOTE ]

I c-bet the vast majority of flops, and almost 100% when HU. To me, the arguments against c-betting this one were:
1. OOP vs 3 opponents, all more or less LP, so I am picking up this pot like never.
2. I disagree it's that trashy; it hits a lot of cold-calling hands like 65s, 87s, 97s, 88, 66, etc.
3. if I get raised, I have no idea whether I'm drawing dead, drawing to overs, or ahead of a draw.

tyler_cracker · #5 06-04-2007, 04:04 PM

you forgot to mention that it also has a flush draw.

what do you hope to accomplish by checking? are you going to just c/f? that's giving up on a 8SB pot pretty quickly. you will also have even less of an idea where you're at if you check and someone bets (especially if the last guy bets).

i think this is a case where you're calling a bet anyway, so you may as well bet yourself. while i may have overstated the trashy nature of this flop, it is still paired and 7-high and is likely to have missed your opponents. there are a variety of hands you would like to see fold.

you are OOP and it sucks, but i just bet and see what happens because the alternative is even worse.

earlytimes1 · #6 06-04-2007, 04:37 PM

yeah, if I check this flop, I'm c/folding. c/c obv sucks.

I agree it's giving up quickly on a decent-sized pot, but I feel I have very little equity versus even a generous range of opponents' hands (mid pair, overs, gutter/flush draw, etc), and I am not winning this pot UI. with position I would cbet everytime & consider a turn free card, but my spot just stinks here. I'm ready to hear someone tell me I'm tightweak, tho.

tyler_cracker · #7 06-04-2007, 05:17 PM

c/c sucks a lot less when you spike TPGK on the turn.

James. · #8 06-05-2007, 09:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Somewhat read dependent. Against normal people I'd c-bet and plan to put in another bet on a safe turn. This is a good flop for you, since your opponents likely missed it.

KQ is probably at the bottom of your UTG raising range. Your opponents will not want to call you to the river with just overs because they'll expect to lose to your AK or high/medium PP too often.

However, if you're at a table that's so L/P that virtually all pots are getting shown down, you may as well check and see if you can get to the turn for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty solid advice.

i will add that usually the favorite coldcalling hands are suited connectors, some suited aces and pp's. we beat all suited connectors, but many of the pp's that would coldcall now have a made hand with a gutshot. plus i don't think they're going anywhere on a paired board. that lends me to a c/c, especially so given our horrible position and likely handranges of those three behind us. firing a flop bet getting that price on the first bluff initiative is pretty tempting, though.