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  #11  
Old 11-07-2007, 06:52 PM
KikoSanchez KikoSanchez is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity

I still don't get bible literalists. The ones I speak to go about saying the bible is literal, there is a hell, etc then want to ignore kosher eating, the acceptance of slavery/selling off your daughter/stoning disobedient children, talking snakes and the ridiculous sham that is Noah's Ark.
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:18 PM
Splendour Splendour is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity

Prophecy didn't just relate to the Messiah it also pertained to other events. Sounds like your course was biased. I find Louis Lapides convincing. He was a Hebrew that converted after finding what he terms "the fingerprint evidence". Hebrews converting to Christianity are a rarity. There seems to be almost a Jewish cultural stigmatism against a Jew converting to Christianity yet he did it.
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:21 PM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity


I know I respond to a lot of your posts, and this is not hostility on my part I just find them so weird sometimes, esp this stigma thing. Do you believe there is no Christian cultural stigma versus converting to other religions?
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  #14  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:34 PM
KikoSanchez KikoSanchez is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity

There definitely is, atleast in the states. Even moving from one sect to another is stigmatized by many. I once told my father I was dating a girl who was catholic, he could only respond with "catholics are a backward people" as if they were some tribal hunter-gatherer society.

Much worse here in the states is the stigma surrounding atheists. My friend was talking to my new gf's mother (though he is a closer friend of my gf, so is protective of her). He said of me "I really like him, he's a good guy. The only thing I don't like about him is he is an atheist." As if me being an atheist distinguishes me from every other person in society in my day-to-day behaviors/activities. In reality, I am no different than every other "christian" who doesn't go to church, besides the fact that I don't cite morals based on the appeal to authority fallacy (which I posit is a good thing). Many people here in the south simply find atheists completely radical and in an extreme minority, not knowing that many countries in Europe are near half or even majority atheist/agnostic and the growth of which within the US is quite astonishing.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:39 PM
Sephus Sephus is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity

[ QUOTE ]
Many people here in the south

[/ QUOTE ]

sympathies.
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  #16  
Old 11-07-2007, 08:05 PM
Taraz Taraz is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity

[ QUOTE ]
After Jesus died, Jesus's followers (none of whom was previously impressive in the slightest) by all rights should have disbanded, lucky to have their skins intact, as Jesus at this point was not a popular guy. Instead, they claim he was resurrected, and at great cost to themselves and without any financial backing or incentive became absolutely devoted zealots with his ressurection as the foundation of their belief. His conclusion was that the only explanation was the disciples truly believed in the resurrection.


[/ QUOTE ]

This professor has obviously never heard of cognitive dissonance. Classic psychology study by Leon Festinger:

[ QUOTE ]

In the course of his investigations Festinger, a trained psychologist, actually infiltrated the cult himself and was thus a first hand witness to the groups behaviour in the wake of the non-fulfilment of their doomsday prophecy.

Given the reality of Earth's survival the dissonance of the thought between prior belief and failed fulfillment was typically rationalised by the cult members not so much through dismissal of the original prophecy as through modification of that prophecy. That is to say that the cult members tended to accept that the aliens had actually saved the entire world as their route to ensuring the survival of the cult.


Festinger suggested that to rationalize, or change beliefs and asttitudes, was an easier route to resolve the stress associated with cogitive dissonance than a complete dismissal of their individual acceptance of the original prophecy.


[/ QUOTE ]
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  #17  
Old 11-07-2007, 08:10 PM
Taraz Taraz is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity

[ QUOTE ]

Prophecies from the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Nearly 300 predictions from hundreds of years before his birth were acknowledged by rabbis as having been made in reference to a coming deliverer they called the Messiah.

These predictions included Bethlehem as the place of his birth (Micah 5:2), that he would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14 in the Septuagint Greek translation c.a. 250 B.C.E.), and that the time of his birth would be just before Israel lost their sovereign power as a nation (Genesis 49:10)--this took place just after the beginning of the First Century C.E. when Archelaus took the throne.

It is significant that when Israel cried, "Woe to us, for the scepter has been removed and the Messiah has not come!" (Talmud, Babylon, Sanhedrin), Jesus was walking in their midst.


It was also predicted that he would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5,6), that he would enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9), would die a dreadful, yet substitutionary death (Isaiah 53) by crucifixion (Psalm 22:14-17), a form of death not even known at the time of the psalm's composition, and that he would be raised from the dead (Psalm 16:9f).

No one else in history can remotely claim to be the object of such prophecies except Jesus of Nazareth.

Astonishingly, the chances of fulfilling just eight specific prophecies is one in 100,000,000,000,000,000 notes a panel of scientists with the American Scientific Affiliation.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately you can't get around the problem that it is much more plausible that the authors of the Gospels made up the stories to fulfill these old prophecies.
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  #18  
Old 11-07-2007, 08:13 PM
Splendour Splendour is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity

[ QUOTE ]

I know I respond to a lot of your posts, and this is not hostility on my part I just find them so weird sometimes, esp this stigma thing. Do you believe there is no Christian cultural stigma versus converting to other religions?

[/ QUOTE ]

There very well could be and the extent of it could vary by individual and religious group. But I found Lapides conversion remarkable because I've known a lot of Jews but never knew one that converted to Christianity from Judaism. Conversion to other religions IS rare for Jews. You see a lot of sect crossovers with Christians but not Jewish conversion to Christianity.
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  #19  
Old 11-07-2007, 08:53 PM
Splendour Splendour is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity

[ QUOTE ]

I know I respond to a lot of your posts, and this is not hostility on my part I just find them so weird sometimes, esp this stigma thing. Do you believe there is no Christian cultural stigma versus converting to other religions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a link on what we were discussing.

http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/louis_lapides.aspx
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  #20  
Old 11-07-2007, 09:01 PM
Splendour Splendour is offline
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Default Re: Beginning of Christianity

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Prophecies from the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Nearly 300 predictions from hundreds of years before his birth were acknowledged by rabbis as having been made in reference to a coming deliverer they called the Messiah.

These predictions included Bethlehem as the place of his birth (Micah 5:2), that he would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14 in the Septuagint Greek translation c.a. 250 B.C.E.), and that the time of his birth would be just before Israel lost their sovereign power as a nation (Genesis 49:10)--this took place just after the beginning of the First Century C.E. when Archelaus took the throne.

It is significant that when Israel cried, "Woe to us, for the scepter has been removed and the Messiah has not come!" (Talmud, Babylon, Sanhedrin), Jesus was walking in their midst.


It was also predicted that he would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5,6), that he would enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9), would die a dreadful, yet substitutionary death (Isaiah 53) by crucifixion (Psalm 22:14-17), a form of death not even known at the time of the psalm's composition, and that he would be raised from the dead (Psalm 16:9f).

No one else in history can remotely claim to be the object of such prophecies except Jesus of Nazareth.

Astonishingly, the chances of fulfilling just eight specific prophecies is one in 100,000,000,000,000,000 notes a panel of scientists with the American Scientific Affiliation.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately you can't get around the problem that it is much more plausible that the authors of the Gospels made up the stories to fulfill these old prophecies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure about that. Here's Lapides himself on the subject.

http://www.growthtrac.com/artman/pub...essiah-631.php
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