Sun Mil: Explain this top MTT Pro hand, plz.

Mr_Donktastic · #1 04-09-2007, 03:10 PM

So I was BB in this hand. To my left was one of the better known internet MTT players - I think condsidered one of the best. Since he was there I figured I should try to learn from what he was doing but this hand left me a little confused. Please let me know what you think...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP2 (t23350)
MP3 (t10275)
CO (t4475)
Button (t8512)
SB (t20175)
Hero (t18050)
MTT Pro (t15800)
UTG+1 (t25225)
MP1 (t30713)

Preflop: MTT Pro is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t300, 5 folds, Button raises to t600, 2 folds, UTG calls t300.

Obv when it comes back he has to call the minraise but I would normally just toss 77 UTG at this point in the tourney...is it really a good idea to limp small pps UTG ever, or at least without a sizeable chip stack?

Flop: (t1650) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Button bets t900, UTG calls t900.

OOP float? OK so 77 might very well be good here but he can't be flat calling for that reason? Is it just to take the pot away later?

Turn: (t3450) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Button bets t1200, UTG raises to t3900, Button calls t2700.

So this is the part of the hand that confuses me the most...this bluff c/r.

How often is the BTN going to be double barrelling here? How often will they lay down any TP hand? I would think that more often than not villian has a hand and is not folding, meaning that this bluff would not be successful very often. And also what about the raise size? It seems kinda small? If we need villian to lay down marginal hands for this to work, why not just c/r ai?

River: (t11250) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Button checks.

I guess pushing would be useless at this point given stack sizes...

Final Pot: t11250

woodguy · #2 04-09-2007, 03:27 PM

PF = fine, some raise some don't so they can call a raise behind easier, anyone folding to a minraise should be shot. Seriously, he can turn over AA and you have to call for set value alone.

Flop = bet looks a little weak, floating OOP isn't good, but peeling one here to see what button does on turn is ok given the stack sizes, but I would prefer to be deeper

Turn = Button makes same weakish type bet, but it is a 2nd barrell so bluffing by button is less likely but not impossible, tossing 77 here is ok,
UTG reads it as weakness, but makes a fairly weak c/r, but it should be enough to get someone to fold two overs, but more specifically 88-JJ hopefully.

River = well, the turn c/r got called, he's not putting another dime in...yay Button checked behind we can see if we are good

Mr_Donktastic · #3 04-09-2007, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PF = fine, some raise some don't so they can call a raise behind easier, anyone folding to a minraise should be shot. Seriously, he can turn over AA and you have to call for set value alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he has to call the minraise but what I'm wondering is why play the hand in the first place? I'm used to FR cash games where this is a pretty easy muck unless the majority of the table is deep and passive, which is pretty rare.

woodguy · #4 04-09-2007, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Of course he has to call the minraise but what I'm wondering is why play the hand in the first place? I'm used to FR cash games where this is a pretty easy muck unless the majority of the table is deep and passive, which is pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty weak tight.

UTG has 60BB's which is plenty deep to do this.

I play more cash than MTT these days and mucking 77 up front is worse there than in MTT's since in cash games I am usually 100BB+ and MTT's 50BB is deep.

If you are shortstacking FR cash then....well......

If I'm getting down to 15BB or so, I may muck 77 up front but it has to be a really aggro table to do so.

Mr_Donktastic · #5 04-09-2007, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course he has to call the minraise but what I'm wondering is why play the hand in the first place? I'm used to FR cash games where this is a pretty easy muck unless the majority of the table is deep and passive, which is pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty weak tight.

UTG has 60BB's which is plenty deep to do this.

I play more cash than MTT these days and mucking 77 up front is worse there than in MTT's since in cash games I am usually 100BB+ and MTT's 50BB is deep.

If you are shortstacking FR cash then....well......

If I'm getting down to 15BB or so, I may muck 77 up front but it has to be a really aggro table to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to get into the nuances of playing UTG in FR cash games, but I believe folding small pps UTG is correct in most mid stakes games nowadays. I am def not weak tight but am a nit UTG fwiw.

Anyway I don't see how 60BBs is plenty to call 4BB raise? It is close if the other players also have big stacks. BUT - the people most likely to raise are the LP players and they are all short?

IDK - would like to hear others opinions on playing small pps in EP. I tend to toss em cuz the effective stacks are always so short in donkaments but maybe I should play em more...

0evg0 · #6 04-09-2007, 04:07 PM

dude, folding 77 there is just [censored] stupid

it's a donkament

and raising > limping 90% of the time too.

fold? wtf? ughhhhhhh

woodguy · #7 04-09-2007, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to get into the nuances of playing UTG in FR cash games

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Get involved in pot for less than 10% of stack
2. Hit your set
3. ?????
4. Profit

or

1. Get involved for less than 10% of stack
2. Miss your set.
3. Don't overplay your hand OOP
4. ??????
5. Profit

or

1. Open raise
2. Steal blinds
3. Profit

or

1. Open raise.
2. Make cont bet
3. Profit

or

1. Open raise
2. Cont bet
3. Get called.
4. See a showdown cheap or fold if you think you are behind
5. Profit.

Folding pairs up front with 60BB's is not nuanced, its weak.

Regards,
Woodguy

potamophobia · #8 04-09-2007, 04:38 PM

A lot depends on the table. If people are commonly min raising like this, then I would definitely limp UTG with a small PP. I might lead at this board on the flop and be done with it if I meet resistance.

As he played it, I would fold to the turn bet.

Oh, and I wouldnt fold 77 preflop in a cash game either.

BarryLyndon · #9 04-09-2007, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to get into the nuances of playing UTG in FR cash games

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Get involved in pot for less than 10% of stack
2. Hit your set
3. ?????
4. Profit

or

1. Get involved for less than 10% of stack
2. Miss your set.
3. Don't overplay your hand OOP
4. ??????
5. Profit

or

1. Open raise
2. Steal blinds
3. Profit

or

1. Open raise.
2. Make cont bet
3. Profit

or

1. Open raise
2. Cont bet
3. Get called.
4. See a showdown cheap or fold if you think you are behind
5. Profit.

Folding pairs up front with 60BB's is not nuanced, its weak.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

pwnage

Mr_Donktastic · #10 04-09-2007, 04:41 PM

Yes, this is excellent! I may finally be able to beat 400nl now! TYVM kind sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar.