Poker In Colorado?

[Dog Boy]

Come on... let him find another job first.

[RR]

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there is a gross conflict of interest in this thread.
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alright. let me take a stab at this math as I understand it.

let the game be beatable at a winrate of x, where x = # of big bets/hour.

since the rake is capped at ~$7/pot (is this 10%?), let's assume an average rake of $5 per pot/no flop no drop.
assuming a dealing rate of 35 hands/hour, that's $175 coming out of circulation every hour out of $1750 total that's exchanging hands every hour.


although you can't calculate the true rake you are paying without your pots won/pots lost ratio, i highly doubt this game can be beaten; if it can, it's probably at 10bb/hour or more.

by all means, if there's someone out there with more math tricks, please correct me.

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the assumed numbers Furyion21 uses are on the conservative side.

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RR does this conservative math sound correct to you or not.please give reasons for your point of view.you have said and reiterated the poitnt that "these games are easily beatable". you have provided exactly zero evidence for your point of view.other than something that read like"um...im a mod and a gilpen floor who has played and won 5 times and know this to bet true...take my word for it.my intelect combined with my sample size are profound factual evidence BSBSBSBSBSProGilpenThisProGilpenThat..........."

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The biggest reason there are very few people beating small games is generally people that can beat small games move to larger games. Are you saying no small games can be beaten? There are games that have larger rakes than this that are smaller and are structured in a a way that rewards looser play that can be beaten. If a game is smaller with a higher rake and can be beaten there would have to be something very odd going on in Colorado to makes those games unbeatable (variance only increases the bankroll requirement, it doesn't decrease the EV of a +EV solution). And I never said it was easy to beat the games; I said it was clear they are beatable. The arugment that small games can't be beaten is not a new one, there is no need to disprove it every time a new person discovers 2+2. One thing that could bolster your argument (but appears to be false) is if you made the argument that there are better players in Colorado because they don't have a game to move up to.

Since you like throwing some math out there. You have seen really bad play there. I will take your assumption that $5/hand comes off the table. If on average one person puts in a $5 bet with no chance of winning that rake shouldn't be hard to overcome. Do you think in these games people ever put dead money in the pot or do all the players have roughly equal equity in the money they put in? Ihave noticed over the years there are roughly three types of people that play small games, those that lose and don't care, those that win and take the money, those that try to win and come to the conclusion that nobody can win since they can't.

[NextinLine]

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This is where the games are protected. If it happens like this, this guy just laid 2:1 with his kings. Now if he signaled a partner to fold pocket queens while he had kings that would be tough to beat.

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So how are the games protected? You seem to defend your casino and are overly sure that there is no collusion going on up there. Tell me you're not that naive?

[RR]

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This is where the games are protected. If it happens like this, this guy just laid 2:1 with his kings. Now if he signaled a partner to fold pocket queens while he had kings that would be tough to beat.

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So how are the games protected? You seem to defend your casino and are overly sure that there is no collusion going on up there. Tell me you're not that naive?

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This is not an effective collusion method. Successful collusion generally involves playing best hand and folding hands that would otherwise be played. People will try to collude by raising for their partner but particularly in limit games this is not an effective method of cheating. Do you really think the KK is such a good hand that it is worth it to lose double when it gets beaten. These same allegations are made in every market (you are new here so I am going to assume that you aren't aware that I have experience in multiple large poker markets and was only recently convinced to come to Colorado). The story is always the same: "You can't win at {insert largest room with most action} because they collude {some people say cheat, some say play partners} there." I do think this appears worse in Colorado because there are players that want to always cap it that would be blowing off their money at 10-20 or 20-40 if it was allowed. It isn't cheating if two players make it $30 preflop (5 raise limit in CO) every hand. If someone raises every hand they will still get their share of good and bad cards so there will be times that one of the raisers have AA and one has 27.

[NextinLine]

so do you think it's collusion when there's 7 players at 5-5, only 1 white.. White guy is out of a hand, and the total pot may get to $60. White guy in the pot and it's capped by all players until whitey folds. The whole point of 5-5 for the asians is to take outside money.. They'll openly admit to it, just won't say they cheat to do it.

[jackhigh]

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This is where the games are protected. If it happens like this, this guy just laid 2:1 with his kings. Now if he signaled a partner to fold pocket queens while he had kings that would be tough to beat.

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So how are the games protected? You seem to defend your casino and are overly sure that there is no collusion going on up there. Tell me you're not that naive?

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This is not an effective collusion method. Successful collusion generally involves playing best hand and folding hands that would otherwise be played. People will try to collude by raising for their partner but particularly in limit games this is not an effective method of cheating. Do you really think the KK is such a good hand that it is worth it to lose double when it gets beaten. These same allegations are made in every market (you are new here so I am going to assume that you aren't aware that I have experience in multiple large poker markets and was only recently convinced to come to Colorado). The story is always the same: "You can't win at {insert largest room with most action} because they collude {some people say cheat, some say play partners} there." I do think this appears worse in Colorado because there are players that want to always cap it that would be blowing off their money at 10-20 or 20-40 if it was allowed. It isn't cheating if two players make it $30 preflop (5 raise limit in CO) every hand. If someone raises every hand they will still get their share of good and bad cards so there will be times that one of the raisers have AA and one has 27.

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Obviously they cap with the goods and don't cap with bad hands (the teams... not the bad players). Like I stated before, they will check down a flopped boat if a white or non-team member is not in the hand - F*CKING OBVIOUS! And yes KK will ALWAYS be a favorite over any hand pre flop but Aces- so very cap-able.

Once again... if you tell or signal an accomplice to raise in order to build a pot for your good hand - IT'S COLLUSION!!!! RR what part of this do you not understand?

If your casino (or sister casino the Lodge) were serious about stopping this - they easily have the means (gaming laws) to do so. They also most definately can get evidence by simply reviewing tapes (hand signals), talking to players and dealers, or by simply going undercover with a few agents. Remember, a Casino can refuse service to anybody for any reason - you don't even need rock solid evidence.

I was involved in a tournament at the Station one night where a disgruntled player called gaming to the Casino. She was bitching about how we were colluding when someone mentioned "I'll check it down" when she was all in. Gaming came over for about 2 HOURS and reviewed the situation (ruling in our favor because nobody was sure what was said). Now come on... this is peanuts compared to what goes on at the Lodge. Where the F is gaming?

Sadly, from your exhaustingly tiresome managerial defense of this practice, I don't hope to see any changes soon. So I simply won't play 5-5 at the Lodge and will always instruct others not to play there. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[RR]

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so do you think it's collusion when there's 7 players at 5-5, only 1 white.. White guy is out of a hand, and the total pot may get to $60. White guy in the pot and it's capped by all players until whitey folds. The whole point of 5-5 for the asians is to take outside money.. They'll openly admit to it, just won't say they cheat to do it.

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I have lived and worked in diverse poker rooms. I don't stereotype people by the color of their skin. SO you are saying their great cheating strategy is to give the white guy 6:1 on his money every time he choses to play a pot. So they are risking 180 preflop to win 30, and the guy putting in the 30 gets to pick the hands he plays while the "team" putting in the 180 will play random hands? You think that is a winning strategy?

[JackInDaCrak]

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so do you think it's collusion when there's 7 players at 5-5, only 1 white.. White guy is out of a hand, and the total pot may get to $60. White guy in the pot and it's capped by all players until whitey folds. The whole point of 5-5 for the asians is to take outside money.. They'll openly admit to it, just won't say they cheat to do it.

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I have lived and worked in diverse poker rooms. I don't stereotype people by the color of their skin. SO you are saying their great cheating strategy is to give the white guy 6:1 on his money every time he choses to play a pot. So they are risking 180 preflop to win 30, and the guy putting in the 30 gets to pick the hands he plays while the "team" putting in the 180 will play random hands? You think that is a winning strategy?

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Also, apparently all the asians in Blackhawk are in cahoots with each other according to this guy.

this is SFSTUPID.

[NextinLine]

A good portion are.

mod note: Edited to remove unacceptable name calling. -RR

[jackhigh]

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so do you think it's collusion when there's 7 players at 5-5, only 1 white.. White guy is out of a hand, and the total pot may get to $60. White guy in the pot and it's capped by all players until whitey folds. The whole point of 5-5 for the asians is to take outside money.. They'll openly admit to it, just won't say they cheat to do it.

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I have lived and worked in diverse poker rooms. I don't stereotype people by the color of their skin. SO you are saying their great cheating strategy is to give the white guy 6:1 on his money every time he choses to play a pot. So they are risking 180 preflop to win 30, and the guy putting in the 30 gets to pick the hands he plays while the "team" putting in the 180 will play random hands? You think that is a winning strategy?

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Also, apparently all the asians in Blackhawk are in cahoots with each other according to this guy.

this is SFSTUPID.

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Where do you get 6 guys? You need only 2 to cap my friends. Not all Asians are colluders - so this argument has nothing to do with racism.

2 weeks ago there was nearly an all Asian gang fight at the Lodge over this very issue... several arrested.

So, at the Lodge they are serving up Whitey AND Asian Sandwiches!