Poker Gods/Bot Hunters: If you saw the following, what would you do?

[LeapFrog]

You do run macros at least for folding, right Bob? If not, you are nuts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Spaggy]

MICROBOB: the timing was EXACT on every single hand. Trust me when I say that I don't pay nearly enough attention to things like that to pick up on a specific pattern unless it's ridiculously obvious. I agree with you (and as a lurker tend to respect your opinions) on the fact that nothing is conclusive. I am used to slow players who I assume are playing tons of tables, but what set off the red flag initially was the clear and exact timing for every action he made. I'm not the type of makes an issue over game speed (like the "zzzzz" chatters), but this was ridiculous.

I looked through the chat log, and honestly based on the feedback I don't think it's conclusive enough to warrant an investigation (especially a fanatical one).

I still think he's running bots that override to manual play when certain events occur, but turning the guy's life upside down via Mr. Gatorade seems a little harsh. As I said before, I'm no expert on this, and now that I'm aware that 20+ tabling is not unusual I see no need to post the transcript.

I will say that there were several comments from railbirds (at .10/.25?) when the subject came up, which makes me think somebody else is already watching.

If I see the SN at it again, and anything interesting happens, I'll probably change my mind. This is exactly why I went to the community for guidance, and based on the input of the regulars I'm letting it go.

[mayday4379]

you guys are retarded with bots. They can't play 20+ tables. They need to screen scrape the tables and the tables need to be 100% visible. They also need to press the buttons on the poker client and trying to press 5 of them at the same time would cause it to freeze up (I"m assuming if you're 20 tabling that 5 tables need attention at the same time.)

No PC can handle the CPU usage of trying to 20 table a bot. Jesus.

[Spaggy]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys are retarded with bots. They can't play 20+ tables. They need to screen scrape the tables and the tables need to be 100% visible. They also need to press the buttons on the poker client and trying to press 5 of them at the same time would cause it to freeze up (I"m assuming if you're 20 tabling that 5 tables need attention at the same time.)

No PC can handle the CPU usage of trying to 20 table a bot. Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I'm far from an expert on bots, but I disagree with this. I would imagine that any bot that gets past security would be connecting to the poker client via a remote desktop. Given that shared processing power is available for rent (and through botnets like Storm), wouldn't it be possible for a whole gang of computers to be sharing the load from the host computer?

Look at things like click fraud - IIRC correctly something like 25% of all search engine clicks are estimated to be fraudulent, and I know personally of networks capable of generating millions of pageviews and clicks across thousands of sites - all without any human interaction. Working at an ad network has exposed me to some coding/automated setups that go beyond what I thought was technically possible with current technology.

Look up Storm Worm (and how it works) if you want to see what's already out there (teh rize of teh masheens!).

This is a little off topic, but to say that it's impossible to have a computer setup that's automated and can play 20+ poker tables is, in my opinion, wrong. Does that mean somebody actually has one and is using it right now? Not at all.

[PokerStarsJeff]

[ QUOTE ]
(CLIFF NOTES) - player X is most likely a bot. He is easy to beat, and plays 20 tables at a time. Three questions come out of my rant below, and are the following:

1. Is this player a bot, and/or what are the chances he is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Zero.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Since he isn't very good regardless, is it still my obligation to report him?

[/ QUOTE ]

You just did. <grin> My "short" finding is above. My long one is below.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Am I violating any T/Cs if I choose to just follow him around and try to clean him out assuming I don't report him?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
Here is what happened last night on Pokerstars (Cliff notes):

[/ QUOTE ]

You saw a player playing 20 tables, acting slowly (10-15 secs at each one). You chatted him up and challenged him and though it took him a while, he eventually responded.

I believe this is the chat in question. I have edited it to protect the identity of all involved. OP, please correct me if I am wrong about this being the session:

[ QUOTE ]


OP you put down the abacus i see <userID>
OP i appreciate it
.
.
.
OP hah, <userID> - you need to tweak your bot's "crafty" setting
OP alright, this has to be the worst bot ever
P2 Bot? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
OP you dont find the play "odd"
P1 are you aking me?
P2 Uhm, never though of it
OP he can feel free to say "hey guys, im a person"
P3 <userID> = BOTTTT
OP no, was talking to P2
MrX your all morons
OP there you are
MrX i love how stupid these limits are
OP i knew i'd set off the script
P2 Haha
OP its ok
P2 <userID>, how much you winning at these limits?
OP just adjust the default tmer to not take as long
OP he's at 20 tables
MrX indeed...
MrX who cares
OP i tell you what
OP transfer me some cash
OP or maybe i just pop it up on 2p2 and let them figure out
OP hahaha
.
.
.
OP i dont see any transfers
MrX y the f would i do that?
MrX -ev
OP getting your funds frozen = -ev
MrX rofl
MrX k u can try
OP those 2p2 peeps love bot hunting
MrX u arent the 1st
OP ahhh
OP i see
MrX dont give a [censored] if u think im a bot
MrX tell support let them figure it out
OP i really don't care
OP i just wanted you to speed up
OP it was annoying
MrX u obv do...
OP no, dont
OP i really dont
OP because you have not won money
OP in fact
OP P1 has taken like $50 from you
MrX at 1 table...
OP right
OP my table, and i dont like waiting for you to make simple decisions
OP and so far, i'm winning
OP because A. you're now here
OP and B. you sped up your game
OP that is all
P2 Give him/her a break
P2 Playing 20 tables
P2 You said it yourself [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
MrX its not that difficult
MrX unless i gotta pis
OP all - it's over, i just wanted the game to move faster
OP mission accomplished



[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming "MrX" is the guy you saw (and I'd go all-in on that), I can assure you with absolute certainty that this player is not a bot. You seem to base your supposition on the fact that he plays 20 tables, and that he didn't answer your chat immediately, but later did so and began acting faster.

Without going into the nitty gritty detail of what we look at to make this determination, your observations are in fact rather exonerating themselves. A player who is playing 20 tables is frequently at the edge of his capabilities, with actions "stacked up", awaiting his input at multiple tables. Such a player rarely has time to chat -- a table pops up, they assess, make a snap decision and move on to the next game.

When he happened to note your chat, he sat out at several tables in order to slow down his decisions per hour in order to talk to you. When he felt the conversation was over, he returned to his full complement of games.

Based upon the proactive bot hunting tools we have, and a complete bot review of MrX, I can say with complete certainty that he's human. Playing 20 tables without chatting is nothing unusual (as 'edfurlong' noted in this thread, there is an unlimited supply of players doing "extreme multi-tabling"), nor is any of the other data we examine as a routine part of bot reviews. This player wouldn't have ever come up on our radar at all, so few flags does he raise (none).

In any case, thanks for your report, OP. Whether you report them directly to support@pokerstars.com (preferred) or just mention them here, we welcome the opportunity to perform an in-depth examination of any player suspected of being a bot.

If you have any further questions, please let us know.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Game Security

P.S. No "PWNED" followups, please.

[Josem]

Jeff,

That is truly excellent work. Congratulations.

[Spaggy]

EDIT: While I have been pwned and openly admit it, I want to make one thing clear before the flame thrower lights. Jeff is correct in his theory that my basis for suspicion was entirely based on my lack of knowledge regarding the number of players routinely playing 20 tables or more. After being educated on this by edfurlong and others, I both dropped further investigation and pointed out that posting the chat log would only have negative results. I now feel like a douche and will hereby revert back to strictly lurking. PWNED.

That indeed is the chat...and my edited transcript is the same piece of the history.

As noted in the responses I made, I felt it unnecessary to post it both because I wasn't convinced he was a bot anymore, and it seemed a lot more incriminating at the time (2-3am).

However, the official (and timely) response is reassuring, and I have definitely been pwned.

Thanks for getting involved.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
You do run macros at least for folding, right Bob? If not, you are nuts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't even know what that is.

[Bobo Fett]

NH PSJeff.

Spaggy, don't feel too bad. Yes, you may have been pwned, but I have to say this is one of the best bot accusation threads I have seen here. You did a good job of explaining what made you suspicious, and you were open-minded when people provided you with explanations.

[Spaggy]

[ QUOTE ]
NH PSJeff.

Spaggy, don't feel too bad. Yes, you may have been pwned, but I have to say this is one of the best bot accusation threads I have seen here. You did a good job of explaining what made you suspicious, and you were open-minded when people provided you with explanations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks...I honestly feel like such a prick now that I know MrX is just a grinder. If I could apologize I would as what I said wasn't cool in light of my education.