5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online

[FireStorm]

Also, regarding the level of action for sit-and-folders: You would be surprised how little action these players get live. People actually do notice that they never show down anything non premium, and will often openly comment about someone being a tight player, etc, and will accordingly refuse to give them action.

Agree with the above that 200-300bb live plays like a smaller stack online due to preflop raise sizes etc.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, regarding the level of action for sit-and-folders: You would be surprised how little action these players get live. People actually do notice that they never show down anything non premium, and will often openly comment about someone being a tight player, etc, and will accordingly refuse to give them action.

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They will comment on how tight they are, then give them absurd action anyway often enough that if they could play 4+ tables live that they would clean up until the table textures changed. A few simple range adjustments can help with tight folds problem. That said, there is a lot to what you're saying. For example, 3+ bet ranges on the turn/river in LHE are MUCH tighter live than online because people aren't as trapped in their own little world.

[canvasbck]

When are people going to get it through their heads that live and online are two different games. Very few people (Ivey is one) have been able to beat the highest levels of both. I am one of those people who wins at 5/10 live but struggle with NL 50 online. Why?? Because I play better live. When I play online I'm easily distracted, I surf the internet and watch TV. When I play live, I'm in a card room, what else is there to do besides poker?

Most if not all of the online "pros" are playing a huge number of tables and relying on PT with HUD. Personally I feel this is borderline cheating, you are letting a computer analyze other players betting tendancies. When I play online now, I play 90% heads up S&G's since that is about the only place where I don't have a massive multitabler that is able to track my play while he is playing 12 other tables. In live play you don't have this nifty little tool, you have to watch players all by yourself and use your brain to track player tendancies.

I agree that the number of donks at a low stakes live game is way higher than the typical online game, but at higher stakes the number of donks drops off considerably and the tools available just arent there.

[Percula]

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One other note, comparing live to online games can be very very deceptive.

Stuff like straddles and 6bb+ openers getting action will make a live game play much bigger and less deep than someone who has just played online would think (where openers are generally between 3bb to 4bb and get less pre-flop action building the pot.) Playing a 200-300bb stack in a live game might effectivly be playing less deep than a 100bb stack online.

This is why I've had trouble getting off my ass an into 2/5 games. The 1/2 and 1/3 games are often softer and play just as big.

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The only thing is if we are talking about uncapped 5/10 and 10/20 games, the average stack might be 300BB, but that is not the mean, by any means. You are more likely to see (3) players with 100BB-200BB (3) with 300BB-500BB and (3) with 1000BB+. It is not uncommon at all to have a couple of players regularly sitting with $25K to $50K.

Even with a straddle virtually every hand and 10BB to 15BB openers with multiple callers, the game plays deep.

[Fnord]

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The only thing is if we are talking about uncapped 5/10 and 10/20 games

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Fair enough, just pointing out that it's unfair to blow off 100bb poker as not playing deep when less money tends to go into the pot on early streets.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

It all depends. I play a lot live, and a lot on line, NL and Limit. The first thing I can assure you is that there is no __X rule that goes across limits online and live.

Most people that say things like NL 5/10 live plays like online NL25 are basing it on there experience with NL Live 1/2 or 2/5, which in most places live have pretty juicy games compare to online. But by time you reach 5/10NL, there is real money on the table and the players are can be tough.

In my experience NL 1/2 often plays like a very small online game, like NL 10. This is simply because NL is very popular now, and 1/2 is the smallest spread. So the complete donks are sitting at 1/2. End of story.

To a certain extent, the same is true with NL 2/5 Live, you will find some donks with money. But you will also find players that know what they are doing.

With limit, I think the view that live players are substantially worse has more viability. live 3/6 and 5/10 are the smallest spread, and they are definitely softer than a stars .50/1 table. 10/20 usually plays at about a 1/2 level, but its different because its far more money. I've sat with internet donks who obviously know cards well enough to beat the game but start doing fishy things because they are not used to the stakes AND things move so slow that you have a lot of time to stew over a bad beat. 15/30 and 20/40 usually play like 3/6 or 5/10. Beyond that, I don't know b/c those are the largest games spread where I play.

Once you reach live NL 5/10, you certainly can't compare it to NL 50, thats for sure. And besides, having $thousannds on the table instead of a few 10 dollar bills affects people alot.

[poker327]

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People actually do notice that they never show down anything non premium, and will often openly comment about someone being a tight player, etc, and will accordingly refuse to give them action

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People call me tight at my 5/10 NL live game, yet I still get action.

[Sykes]

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The $11/hour was a random comment designed to make a point about online low/mid stakes players acting high and mighty over the live player. Don't attack significance to it. However, as to the aforementioned, I'm quite certain you might just be exaggerating a bit about "$100/hour" at Party 1/2 NL. Then again, I suppose you could average any hourly rate you wanted so long as you were willing to nit away your life in front of a screen playing 90 tables at once.

Sykes, if you want people who comment negatively about online to die, that's your right. Be my guest. However, you have now told two people in this thread to do so without offering any analysis. Someone with over 4000 posts can do better then this. Also, your argument that I'm "(expletive) up humanity's gene pool" because I dislike online play seems to be a bit idiotic, don't you think?

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I hate morons and worse yet, I hate people who think they are smart yet make moronic comments when they know they are wrong.

Do you know how bad you'd have to play to make $11/hr playing 1/2NL at PARTY POKER?! Seriously you could do this single tabling.

5bb/100 should be a fair winrate for a decent player. Given that a "online pro" plays around ~4-600 hands an hour, thats $40-60 an hour.

If you had a 5bb/100 at 5/10 live, your hourly winrate would be much less. You'll be lucky to get in 25 hands an hour so let's say 25 hands/hr for arguments sake. 4hours would equal 100 hands. So, $50 for every 4 hours. That's $12.5 an hour. That's less than an "online pro" would make playing 50NL running at ~8bb/100.

And you're also wrong in the fact that people who sit and fold live get no action. We get plenty of action. Last night I ran -$150 with KK at 1/2NL live (3 times (lost 2)) and basically got coolered when 8s7s meets Qs9s on a JsTs Xx flops and yet I made $100 in a little over 3 hours. We get amazing action because PEOPLE ARE [censored] STUPID.

BTW, you talk about nitting up your life in front of a computer screen for inf hours playing 90 tables. You know I don't come to where you work and knock the broom out of your hand. The players that are playing 4+ tables at a time are not doing this as a hobby, they are doing it as a job to take your money as fast as possible because you don't deserve it.

Seriously, anyone that dismisses online poker as "fake" poker is a moron and needs to die as fast as possible. If it's as fake as you say it is, then why do online players dominate live as well?

[jk3a]

Speaking as someone who has played a lot of both I can say that there is a large gap between the big winners in the games. For example, many of the winners in live games make a large number of fundamental errors both pre and post flop that you hardly see even big winners at 1/2 online make. The very fact that the games are generally much looser live helps mask these errors.

I live in the KC area and there is a really juicy 5/10 game that I'd like to play in but frankly I think you'd need a 100K roll minimum to play in a 5K capped game and I just don't have it yet.

[Gonso]

B&M 5/10 games out here in AC don't play that much better than 1/2 games online, and I've played and dealt quite a fair amount of each of them. You have some strong players, sure, but you still have tons of donks who have no idea what they're doing at all.

You have to remember the casinos have a lot of walk-ins from the pit games. A guy sees a little on TV, and buys in. Some of these guys have no problem burning through 5k playing blackjack and find they like poker better.

Online poker is so inconvenient for casual players like that now, at least a lot of them. You've got .25/.50 players online that have read 10 books and have 300k+ hands nowadays, it's almost silly. Maybe outside of the US the poker skill level is weaker now, I don't know, but the NL200 games online are certainly comparable to the 2/5 and 5/10 games I've been around.

You can toss the 10x rule though, that's pretty silly.