Standard preflop raise????

[MrPoPo]

Hey guys,
I always read about the standard opening raise being 4x.
Is there a reason I should use this amount as my default over 3.5x that the pot button gives me on FTP? I'm not trying to be lazy but....you know

-MrPoPo

[MrPoPo]

Sorry if this too obvious...i only 2 or 3 table but i will get completely sucked in by one table with a tough play and I would really like to not have to type in the raise if its not going to make a bif=g difference. I know I need to build a pot with my good hands...but as a default is 3.5x that much worse than 4x?

[grapabo]

Standard is between 3x to 5x the BB. The reasoning has to do with the pot odds you give anyone who wants to call. If it's an unraised pot with 1.5 BB to start, raising it cold by 4xBB will make it 5.5BB, 4BB to go (less to go for the blinds, obv). These kind of pot odds will make it harder to call with a junk hand, and gives you information that anyone who calls more often than not has a hand worth playing. And at the high end, anything over 5xBB, barring a wild game, is unnecessary - you can get the same information at a lower price.

I assume the 3.5BB default is for the benefit of the multitablers so they don't have to manually measure out the raise?

[MrPoPo]

Thanks grapabo

So playing at NL25 like I do I should put in a bit more because usually the players are probably looser?

[grapabo]

I don't think the size of the raise matters as much as doing the raises with the goal of deceiving your opponents. You have to mix it up, and especially if there's a default raise button, using one amount more often than the others, whether it's high or low, can become a tell.

If they're loose and will call 7BB preflop in the same way that they would call 4BB, then by all means, try to increase your raise more often if you have a big hand. But you still have to change up your game, or else you won't get those calls.

[MrPoPo]

cool, i think I understand now...thanks again for your help

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the size of the raise matters as much as doing the raises with the goal of deceiving your opponents. You have to mix it up

[/ QUOTE ]

The ultimate in deception is using the same amount every single time, as the raise tells your opponent absolutely nothing about your hand (other than that it's somewhere in your raising range). Not that varying the amount within a set range is bad, either, just pointing out that you can't possibly give a tell by doing everything exactly the same in every hand you play.

As far as the OP's question goes, the biggest effect the size of your raise has is in the pot odds it offers to your opponents, and especially the big blind. In the most general terms, if you're looking for a "default" raise amount to use while multi-tabling, then make it the most you think you can value raise for in your games--the lower the stakes, the bigger raises you can make preflop and still expect calls from dominated hands & the like. Allow your opponents to make the biggest mistakes they're willing to make.

[silver book]

Use bet pot button on sites that have it (FTP/UB), but do a 4x raise ( remember to add one BB per limper) for sites that dont have bet pot button ( Stars)

[Arctic]

I was just about to make a new thread arounds the same questions.

So far I have been doing the basic 4xBB+1BB every limper.
However, few days ago I bought NL Holdem- Theory and Practice and I was supriced to see Sklansky stating:

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop raise sizing is important. Don't listen to pundits that tell you to keep your raises a constant size. Don't get lazy and just raise the "table standard." Controlling your raise sizes intelligently will help you control your opponents, the pot sizes, and many other factors.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me Sklansky = God Of Poker, and hes logic seems rock solid.

So according to Sklansky when playing deep staked against deep staked opponents I should raise more with my "big pot-hands" and less with our "small pot-hands". "Big pot-hands" meaning suited-connectors and pocket pairs, and "small pot-hands" meaning hands like AK, AQ, KQ etc.

However if your raising agains a calling-station you should raise less, and against a loose cold-caller but a tight folder postflop you should raise more.

So Sklansky says that going for standard raise just in order to minimize the amount of reads is like "cutting off your leg to cure your athlete's foot."

I feel that most people say to them selfs: "What a fish. He doens't even know how much to raise preflop", when someone raises 6xBB as their opening raise.
Extra edge for mixing your raise size, huh?

[mutiger91]

There are many variables to consider (consciously or subconsciously)

Live vs. Online
In a live game, people tend to use multiples of the chips that they have to bet with. You will seldom see a raise to $8 in a $1/$2 NL live game, because most people buy red chips ($5). In fact, $10 raise is so common that it is not given much respect at some tables, so betting 7.5x BB or even more may be the right play live.

Table preflop looseness / tightness
Some tables are so tight everyone folds to a 4x raise. Others will get you lots of callers. You can usually mirror the raises of the rest of the table based on the results they achieve.

How many callers do you want?
So what results do you want to achieve? I want to play my small pot hands against 1 player. I need to know what sized raise will give me one player by observing the table. If I'm drawing for a set or have some other drawing hand like SCs, I want lots of callers preflop so that I'm getting good odds. Now if you ALWAYS bet one way when you are drawing and another when you have a hand, that's too much info to give out. Mixing it up just a little should be good enough to keep people guessing. Just remember that when you play a hand suboptimally for deception that there is a cost for that deception.

Position
Phil Gordon suggests raising less out of position and more in position. It makes sense, since position wins pots when hands don't.

That's a lot to consider, but try not to focus on one hand, but instead on your overall strategy of how you will build pots and minimize losses and stay somewhat deceptive about what you are playing.