I never know how to handle these

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz, if the turn is raise why wouldn't the river be a clear raise? My low, or the number of other lows, hasn't changed from the turn to river.

I guess the crux of my question is how hard do you play a one way nut hand against multiable opponents when you could be quartered or worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the answer is because their hands are better defined on the river. There 2 flush draws and FH draws and other things people could be drawing at on the turn, but once SB bets, BB raises, and UTG and MP3 both call 2, on the river, they aren't drawing any more, they have hands. A big part of the value of the raise on the turn is to charge people drawing at naked high draws.

[TheCount212]

....or drive out others holding worse lows or A4 who are fearful of being quartered.

[Grandma_DOG]

Cooker, the hand is definitely worth playing. A4xx rainbow on the button is playable because of position. In this case, it has excellent value with 4 already in the pot.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz, if the turn is raise why wouldn't the river be a clear raise?

[/ QUOTE ]CJS - Good question.

It's not clear after the turn what these guys are drawing for. Could be diamonds or spades, or maybe not. Could be someone is chasing with a non-nut low. Whatever, since they've all put in one bet, they're all probably going to call a raise. (A drawback to raising on the turn is a heavy handed SB might make it a three bets with a six straight or an A-4-X-Y low, which might have the sad effect of eliminating chasers, but I'd take that risk).

By raising on the turn, you set up for a possible conversion of a low only hand to a scooper on the river. If the river card doesn't fit well with anyone's hand, they all probably check to you, and if you have a reasonably solid image, your river bet may take the whole pot.

Raising on the river without the raise on the turn won't scoop the pot for you, especially since SB has bet, BB has raised(!), UTG is all-in (!!), and MP has just called a double bet (!!!).

After the turn it was not as clear that everyone liked their hand this well! But yikes, when the action gets to you on the river, it looks a lot like someone else may also have the nut low! Possibly two or three of your opponents also have the nut low! That was not nearly as evident from the information available to you after the turn.

There's enough in the pot so that I don't think you want to fold on the river, but one can make a very strong case for calling.

Buzz

[cjs]

results if anyone is interested.



UTG has Kc Ts 8c Ac (Low: 7, 6, 3, 2, A | High: one pair, kings).
MP3 has 7c 5s 8h 4h (Low: 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 | High: straight, seven high).
Hero has 9c 4c Qd As (Low: 6, 4, 3, 2, A | High: high card, ace).
SB has Jh 4d 9d 5d (Low: 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 | High: straight, seven high).
BB has 5c 9s 3c 4s (Low: 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 | High: straight, seven high).
Outcome: Hero wins 9 BB. MP3 wins 3 BB. SB wins 3 BB. BB wins 3 BB. </font>

[Reko Savinen]

Wow, you all play some pretty terrible hands.

[TheCount212]

I take back what I said about the others at your table perhaps afraid of being quartered. The AFC crowd you were running with here seems to fear money most of all.

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]
Cooker, the hand is definitely worth playing. A4xx rainbow on the button is playable because of position. In this case, it has excellent value with 4 already in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a multiway pot, position means much less than in a SH pot, because you are likely to have to show down the best hand. I don't think A4 rainbow makes the best hand often enough to justify the preflop call. I don't think it is terrible to limp here, but I think it is marginal and probably a fold. I would probably play it in PL where the rewards for a big flop can just. I haven't been playing lately, so I might be somewhat off my game, but I will usually fold this with that action.

[Buzz]

CJS - So as it turns out, the three highs got sixthed and you alone had the nut low. That happens a lot when there is raising on the river with boards like this. And since that was the case, you would have done a bit better by raising on the river yourself.

But it just as easily could have gone the other way, with three low hands splitting. And if that had been the case, and if two opponents folded because of the raising, you would have done a bit worse by raising.

In truth, because of the river raising, it looks more like nut high staights (54XY hands) will be splitting than lows, but since I don't know how your opponents play, it was hard for me to say. Seemed (and seems) a close decision to me.

But I'm still 100% for raising on the turn. Wouldn't have worked here, but another time it might. You need to scoop more than average to consistently do much better than average in a high/low split game, and you help yourself in this regard by somehow promoting low only hands to scoopers.

And in cases like this, you have an opportunity to possibly set up the scoop by raising on the turn.

Buzz

[RobNottsUk]

The 1/6 th carve up is rare.
More often you'ld get 1/4'red and have 5 callers or 4, and not lose anything.
Some of the time, you take 1/2 the pot and your raise looks like genius.

A side effect of "being dumb enough to raise the Nut Lo" is you may put your weak-tight opponents on tilt, when they've had an "seemingly uncessary" loss on the river in a hand.

As the question didn't define the types of players, it was hard to glean what hands they likely had, partly because you failed to raise the turn.

Raising the turn there as Buzz suggests, is superior, because you won't get money from the draws that miss on the river. As you only lose money if 3 players have A4 with you, and whilst you can be counterfeited it's less likely when you're going to 1/4 the pot, it's not nearly as risky as it might feel.

If you thought raising the river was wrong, then you really should raise the turn, when it's a family pot, and gain info from the responses.

But some players 3 &amp; 4 bet the turn ignoring the obvious 1/4, when you overcall, and that's not good play either. So when you raise see who's calling you, are they Fish or solid players?