How does everyone feel about this?

[fybpm]

Recently two similar hands lurked in my thoughts after 2 live sessions. I regularly play live at a local venue that has about 6 tables, 5 limit and 1 NL table. What this means, is that everyone is relitively aware of how the next person plays, and only us more aware players are able to mix it up.

Anyways, the NL table is a 3/5 NL with max $500. The majority of the players are WORSE than loose-agressive, they are loose-ridiculous. Calling $100 preflop with suited connectors and weak hands like KJ offsuit.

Needless to say, you can't properly price people out for draws, namely flush but also straights as well (yes, gutshots too).

Anyhow, lately I've played 2 hands incorrectly that I wish I would have changed a few of my plays.

Both hands related to hitting trips on a paired board that has 2 suited cards on it. People relentlessly call bets flush and straight draws on paired boards and I want to know what everyone thinks of pushing people off of those hands. Obviously if you hit your boat or there is a double paired board, then you have no problem doing it, but what if a 3rd flush card hits and you dont boat?

I thought about doing this just to teach people a lesson, the most recent hand played out like this.

I have Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB and check my option with 4 limpers.

Flop comes 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] pot is $17.

SB checks, I bet $15, last position calls and SB calls.

Turn is 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Pot is $62. SB bets $35. I raise to $80, last position folds and SB calls.

River is a blank, he bets $80 into the pot, he has about $150 left behind him. I start to evaluate how we both played the hand and started to think of ways to win the pot.

I ended up flat calling for information (IE what cards he played, how big his flush was, why he didnt bet more, if he had the case 3)... but what I'm thinking is, in this case, because you shouldnt call reraises and continue playing draws on paired boards.

What do you all think of this play: I'm going to try it out next time this happens, because it happens often here.

He bets $80 on river, then I said instantly 'raise' and put out my $80 call. Then I count his chips at $150, put in an additional $200 to put him all in, then turn over my 3 face up and say "thats what you get for flush drawing on a paired board".

I know most of the players know I'm a strong player and would fold, but to make a statement to these donks, what do you all think of the ethics and such of the play? It gets annoying to not hit my boat when I have trips, better yet for someone to call expensive draws and hit.

Input? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Small Fry]

Honestly, I think it's stupid. You want me to think you have a boat so you show me that you hit one of your cards. I'd call you before you could get any words out of your mouth.

So if you're going to try to pull this crap you better also do it when you actually make the boat too.

What you should be doing is making them pay as much as possible on the flop. If you really think your 3's are best and the other guy is on a draw and will make a huge mistake, like calling a $65 bet into a $17 pot, then bet $65. Make them pay through the nose to chase. and don't pay them off when they get there. They might be taking really bad pot odds but if you're going to pay them off you might be giving them the correct implied odds. A huge overbet solves this problem too though. Bad pot odds and then not enough behind for correct implied odds. If their still hell bent on calling nothing you can do but over time you're going to win a lot of money

[allyasia]

not really sure about the comment,
since open and show him a 3, won't that auto muck your hand?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Tell me again why you don't want them calling with draws when they're getting bad odds?

I'd say "don't tap the glass" but I'm having a hard time deciding who is and is not the fish.

[fybpm]

I know that over time it's going to pay off because my odds of hitting the boat/them missing draw are greater than them hitting the draw.

But still, the worst people to play against are those who do not understand the game. It's hard to get value from the hands you do hit and its hard to get them to fold when you miss, regardless of how strong or weak they are.

I'm just wanting to make a statement that's all. I show down a few hands when I am very strong and I lay down big hands and show them down as well, to create a strong table image and it's worked. So maybe its just frustration thats all... when they hit and I dont, when they shouldnt be drawing in the first place.

[fybpm]

Showing a card face up does not muck your hand if you do not verbally declare fold/call/raise or toss your cards pass the betting line.

I know this sounds like a fish post but what you have to understand is this, I'm a strong player, I've played thousands of hands and I make money every time I go here.

What I am saying, which maybe confuses you as to who the bad player is, is that I'm trying to find an alternate way, above and beyond normal play (raise/all-in, in this case) to teach these uneducated poker players a lesson. Just by pushing all in here, just because the player may be even unaware of what a full house is, may call thinking he has the best hand. When a player doesn't understand the game and grasp the concept of raises and bluffs, they make stupid calls, which eliminates a good part of strategy from good players.

Traditional methods may not work and it's frustrated when these players DO make hands, because even if you represent larger, they don't do the logical thing, which means that you lose more money. An experienced player knows that if you have a flush on a paired board and someone puts you all in for another 1/3 of the pot, they probably have quads or a boat, but these players don't have the same mentality and there has to be another way to reach them.

That's all I'm saying. When I do boat up, I punish them. I come out of this game time and time again with 2x-5x my buy-in almost guaranteed assuming nobody hits a HUGE hand against my HUGE hand. Bunch of business owners and punk kids throwing money around, it's like an ATM machine and I have everyone's pin number.

[basementproject]

Frustration is a leak. Don't let your emotions get the best of you- these guys don't know how to play, and that's where your profit comes from. You can't go on getting pissed off when your opponents make mistakes, because you want them to be making mistakes. If they stop making mistakes, you stop winning.

The whole idea behind poker is not to play your cards, but to exploit your opponents inability to think critically and rationally. Outsmart everyone. I'm sure you know that, as you've been playing for a while. The move you proposed is not a rational, and I don't think you'd find anybody at 2+2 who would reccomend it.

[JH1]

These 'fish' are the people who give you a good winrate by making the mistakes that they do because they do not understand the game. Why would you want to stop them from doing that? How much do you win when people don't chase? This seems more like saying "I am a strong player, I deserve to win this pot. Respect my raises." And they don't and you can't do anything about that.

If you put him on the flush, don't pay him off because they will be giving your money away to the other good players at the table (and you are also making their -EV play a +EV play), and yes - punish them when you hit your boat or quads. You have to figure that someone on the flush draw is not going to fold when they hit no matter what the board looks like. If they are chasing a flush on a paired board, they don't care. Don't try to bluff a calling station.

I would suggest searching for some stuff in the stickies on how to play against calling stations. Just play your game and slow down when they catch their card.

[JH1]

As for showing the 3 face up - I think that a lot of people, even the 'fish' are going to be quite suspicious. If you actually have a boat, why would you show him and try to convince him to fold? I know if I was sitting there and you show me that 3 I am insta-calling.

[fybpm]

Makes more sense. Like I said and you all seem to be agreeing, once you get to a level of play where you can know exactly what the other person has and what they're trying to accomplish, the game becomes profitable because you know when to call, when to raise, and when to lay your hand down.

I guess what throws me off sometimes is people who don't follow my rules, lol. I suppose more than anything that's what it is, I know what they are doing, I make a move to prevent them from doing it further, they continue, wether they hit or not I'm just upset that they didn't follow my lead.

I shall fix this leak. Also, everyone is right, if they start respecting too many of my raises, my $400 buy-in wont be $1600 by the end of each night anymore, and we don't want that. I'll force myself to take a deep breath, say "nice hand" and wait for them to do it again next time and miss. Now that I'm getting more and more input, I'd be making a huge mistake if I convinced them to stop playing such draws.