David Grey's Stud section in Full Tilt Tournament Guide - semi-review

[7n7]

I've briefly discussed my thoughts on his section in the Books and Pubs. forum, but wanted to ask any of the stud players if they've read this.

Most of us in the poker-know, know that David is regarded as a tight player (both cash and tournament, any game). Basically, he advocates a very tight (what he calls cash-like) strategy in stud tourneys, esp. in the early rounds, but then still recommends it mostly even into the later stages.

No discussion of HU play, very small section on short and large stack play that really was just common sense. One other thing, David seems concerned more about moving up the pay scale than actually winning the tournament outright, but seems to imply that that's the nature of stud tourneys (and limit tourneys in general).

Any of you stud tourney regulars agree/disagree with his approach? Anybody read the section and have comments on it?

I have very limited experience with stud tournaments. I've done well in the few online that I've played by using a relatively tight/solid approach and made $$. I mainly attributed that to the quality of players though, but maybe I was playing optimally and didn't know it.

I'm also playing my first live stud tourney this weekend and wanted to get some opinions/advice from the regulars here.

Regarding the chapter in the book, overall I was disappointed and was hoping to turn to that section and see that Forrest had written it. He wrote the Stud 8 section and was a co-contributor to the Razz chapter. I'm getting ready to read both of those and have a feeling they'll be much better.

[CarlosChadha]

Hi 7n7,

First off, I have not read any of David Grey's writing, so I can't comment directly on that. However, I have recently been preparing for the WSOP stud tournaments and have learned a couple things. After rereading the orginal 2+2 book on tournements (not Harrington), I realized that most of these nuggests can be interpolated from his general advice.

If the players are playing loose, you really should not make any adjustments to your normal ring play.

If the other players are playing generally tight, or they are aware of the "Gap Concept" (from the 2+2 book), you can make some adjustments. Generally, they are most useful near the bubble, or when you are already in the money:

In general everything below is just part of following the Gap Concept.

-If you are high on board, steal %90 of the time, regardless of position, unless your door card is duplicated. If you have the 2nd highest unduplicated card on the board open raise with any hand that you would normally limp with (this includes hands that you might not even consider limping with in a ring game, like somewhat dead 3 flushes/str8s.

- If you are in late position (1, 2, or 3 seats to the left of the bring-in) with the 2nd highest remaining unduplicated doorcard steal 50-75% (depending how tight or aggressive the players behind you are) of the time. This basically means that you can ignore the high card behind you, and steal with the same range of hands that you would normally steal with, in a ring game, from a late position when you have the high card.

-Even though the Gap Concept would seem to imply that you never open limp with a playable hand, this only applies to limit holdem. In stud you need to have somewhat high doorcard to steal, so if you have something like AhTh4h with the 4 as the door card, you would just limp. If one of the two high cards was your door you would probably raise.

If you play well (ie. can easily fold a marginal hand if you sense you are in trouble) atleast limp (but usually raise if your doorcard is not a small card) with any pair. When people are playing tight trying to conserve chip they are less likely to raise behind you without a pair higher than your doorcard, and thus your hand becomes much easier to play than it would in a ring game where people will raise/reraise with big str8/flush draws and little pairs with big kickers.

-Lastly, but extremely importantly, you MUST adjust your play on the later streets after you raise third and get called because opponents who are aware of the gap concept will have a MUCH tighter range of hands when they call than they would in a ring game. When you get called by a decent player on 3rd, you can usually assume that he has either a medium/large pair, a flush/str8 draw with atleast 1 or 2 overcards to you door, or possibly a small pair with an Ace or King. You can rule out most weaker hands that a strong player might normally call with in a ring game (wired pairs lower than you doorcard with a weak kicker, live flush/str8 draws w/ no overcard, 3 overcards, etc.). Since your opponents range is so much stronger you will not be able to value bet marginal or even good hands as much as you would in a ring game. Also, you should give up on you semi-bluffs immediatly on 4th street if you don't improve, EVEN is your opponent appears to have ragged or you caught a scare card (if your opponent ragged AND you caught a scare card then you can try bluffing one more time, but give up unimproved on 5th unless you catch yet another scare card)

Well, those are pretty much all the stud specific tournement adjustments you need to make. Anything else (inflection points, dealmaking, payout considerations) can be found in either the Harrington or Sklansky tournament books.

Regards,
Carlos

[jon_1van]

7n7,

The most important thing is to ay attention to how your opponents are playing.

If they are loose and giving action pretty much play a cash-game game.


If they seem to be pretty tight you need to start going after antes. This can be the most profitable part of a table. When going after antes I'd suggest ::

-Frequently raising on a pure steal with the best upcard (when it isn't duplicated)
-Occasionally raising with medium cards when you expect the cards behind you to be weak ie duplicated high cards, low cards, or just super-nits.
-Most importantly I've found that I don't always open for a raise. I have 2 reasons for this. 1. I don't want to appear too aggressive because you can make a TON of money stealing bit by bit, so give yourself a little "non-insane" cover. 2. Getting HU with the BI is almost as good as stealing because the BI will frequently insta fold to a 4th street bet.


The live stud tournies I've played quickly deteriorated into a "every has 7BB or less" play. When you find yourself in this kind of environment you need to be keenly aware that even if you hand is very mediocre you will frequently be splitting enough antes to have an overlay even if a small stack has you "beat"(by twodimes)

[betgo]

I thought this chapter was very poor and very weak/tight. My experience from online stud hi and HORSE tournaments is the play gets really weak/tight later on and everyone is stealing with high up cards. I think the advice to fold a middle pair or 3-flush to a raise from a high card is bad.

He says that when you are short stacked, you can't make a play like in NLHE and need to wait for a hand.

He keeps saying to just play rolled up and big pairs, because if you lose the hand you bust out.

I think the strategy has to be very much effected by how the table and other players are playing, and this wasn't covered sufficiently.

I also thought the chapter was generally unsophisticated as to tournament strategy.

[betgo]

It's like TJ's advice on how to play weak/tight and reabable. He goes on and on about how to fold your way into moving up in the money. Then he says if you are a professional player and actually have to make your living off top 3 finishes, you probably don't want to play that way.

He says play mostly big pairs and rolled up. You are only rolled up 1/425th of the time.

[7n7]

Agreed. I totally hate how they advertise this as the definitive guide and then the stud section is so bad.

Will there ever be a good non-HE tournament book?

Disclaimer: I haven't read the other sections of this book yet (PLO, stud 8, etc.).

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I totally hate how they advertise this as the definitive guide and then the stud section is so bad.

Will there ever be a good non-HE tournament book?

Disclaimer: I haven't read the other sections of this book yet (PLO, stud 8, etc.).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh, I believe Grey's section is just deliberate crap to encourage weak/tight donks to do what they do, similar to TJ's books.

The other stud article on starting hands was extremely basic.

The razz section is pretty good. There is good material in the book.

I sort of reviewed what I have read in Books & Publication.

The section on short stack NLHE play by Phil Gordon is pretty basic. It also contains inaccuracies, like suggesting a suited connector is better than an ace or a king for a squeeze play or other steals. It also gives an example of using 88 for a stop and go, when that is about the worst possible hand to stop and go, since you only fold hands you are ahead of. I think Gordon may be more of a big name than a world class player.