25NL Value Extraction with quads

[Chargers In 07]

[ QUOTE ]
Three-bet preflop. Its often correct to treat min raises as limps and even if it was a real raise 3 bet that [censored], you have a premo hand against somebody that raises 10% of their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

[RapidEvolution]

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (MP2): $54.95
CO: $5
BTN: $24
SB: $24.75
BB: $24.40
UTG: $5.35
UTG+1: $27.75
MP1: $36.55

CO posts $0.10
Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP2)
2 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $0.50</font>, Hero calls $0.50, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.45) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP1 bets $0.25</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.75</font>, MP1 calls $0.50

Turn: ($2.95) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $2</font>, MP1 calls $2

River: ($6.95) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $12</font>, MP1 calls $12

Results: $30.95 Pot ($1.50 Rake)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (four of a kind, Jacks) and WON $29.45 (+$14.20 NET)
MP1 mucked T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a straight, Jack high) and LOST (-$15.25 NET)

Here was my thinking on the river. I didn't really think villain was calling a shove with anything less than a full house. If he has a boat, he played it pretty weakly, unless he just picked it up on the river.

If I bet the pot, he'd likely call me with a flush or a straight, figuring I had an overpair or AJ, but he probably wouldn't raise as the only hands I'd call the raise with would be FH's and quads.

I opted to overbet the pot. I figured he'd almost definitely raise me with 88, and likely raise me with any other full house. Aside from that I thought that he'd call this more than half as often as he'd call a PSB (if he has a flush/straight) since it's not a huge % of his stack, and I could very well (given my aggro history at the table) be here with an overpair/AJ/air here often enough to make his call profitable.

[AlexB182]

Very nice betting size on the river and good thought process. It's amazing that overbets work far more often than you think they should...

[RapidEvolution]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Three-bet preflop. Its often correct to treat min raises as limps and even if it was a real raise 3 bet that [censored], you have a premo hand against somebody that raises 10% of their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, congrats on making to 100NL! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Second, I agree that this hand is awesome against his range, but I'm not certain that it will be true if I 3bet and he calls. Also, in the unlikely event that I get 4bet, I pretty much have to fold.

I do realize that this narrows down my 3bet range substantially, but I'm not too sure how many ppl at 25NL are paying attention to my 3bet range.

[Ulkis]

Flynn/Mehta/Miller address this problem in PNLHE Vol 1, pages 121-122 and say that often AI bet feels wrong because most of the time (92.5% as in my example) villain doesn't bite ("negative feed-back").

[Chargers In 07]

[ QUOTE ]

I do realize that this narrows down my 3bet range substantially, but I'm not too sure how many ppl at 25NL are paying attention to my 3bet range.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think it makes a difference there. But people are to loose and like to call, there is also lots of value to be had by reraising here.

[King Spew]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. Does villain call a bet that big given that the pot is pretty small? I mean, in this instance pot would be roughly $5.50 on river and we'd be betting $17. Admittedly, I've been pretty aggro at the table , but is villain going to pay almost 70BB to see if I'm bluffing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fun. You pose a question to me then answer all in the same paragraph.

I'm not a mathguy.... but I think the push-after-turn-check has a reasonable chance of getting the monies. IRL, I suspect I chicken out and bet 1/3 to 1/2 villain's stack. But I think a push-after-check works.

[RapidEvolution]

LOL! I tend to do that sometimes. I guess I was asking if 70BB was too high a price for him to pay, given that I'd been aggro. I think if I'd been passive, he wouldn't pay me off at all, but since I'd been active, he might pay me off up to a certain amount. I was just wondering if $17 was higher or lower than that number. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[threads13]

I guess this is a good time to mention that I love making some AI overbets on the river. It is generally good to do when you have the pure nuts on a drawy board or to do the same thing as bluffs. You can get some metagame stuff out of this.

[wikemang]

i vote shove if you're going to overbet the pot. if he's calling an overbet, duno if he's folding to a shove too often.