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#41
07-20-2007, 03:59 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Atheism imo = a religion. [/ QUOTE ] this is way off. Atheism isn't a dogma like Christianity or Hinduism. Religions, in the simplest terms, are telling you what to believe and how to live your life. Thats it. Atheism [if you can call it that] doesn't pretend to know how you should live your life or what to believe. Its just a word for the mindset of a person that demands evidence for his/her beliefs. Consider it, are you an astrologer? No? Whats the word for that? There isn't one. Theres no term for an non astrologer. Nobody wakes up and says 'I'm not an astrologer' If there was such a term, would we view that mindset on the same terms as astrology? of course not. For you to say that Atheism is a religion is the same thing as saying that non astrology is a superstition on a par with astrology. As you learn more about the world, alchemy gives way to chemistry, astrology gives way to astronomy, and religion gives way to natural philosophy, of which atheism is a part. [/ QUOTE ] I think that's way off. There is a word for non-believing - it's atheism. And in fact it can be just as dogmatic as any "positive" religion. It's a strong belief in a thought about god, just like other religions. Devotees can believe with incredibly strong convictions, just like other religions. This is completely different from "not being an astrologer". [/ QUOTE ] saying that atheism may be similar in some respects to some religions is not the same thing as saying atheism is a religion. 
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#42
07-20-2007, 04:13 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
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Also, I want to believe in something because when I die, if I am examined, I want it to be that I lived the best life I could, etc. [/ QUOTE ] Why do you need to believe in a higher power to live the best life you can?
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#43
07-20-2007, 04:23 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
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I think that's way off. There is a word for non-believing - it's atheism. And in fact it can be just as dogmatic as any "positive" religion. It's a strong belief in a thought about god, just like other religions. Devotees can believe with incredibly strong convictions, just like other religions. This is completely different from "not being an astrologer". [/ QUOTE ] Jeff, I think the problem with that atheist definition is that most atheists are not dogmatic and are open to have their minds changed in light of new evidence. I think by the above definition, you would be hard pressed to find a real "atheist". The fact is, most so called atheists realize that they can never know for sure, just as you can never disprove the fact that there is cheese at the core of the moon. Instead, these atheists look at the facts and weigh the evidence for or against a god, and realize that there is a huge imbalance against such a being. I guess logic will never allow me to understand this blind faith thing.
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#44
07-20-2007, 04:30 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
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[ QUOTE ] There are basically three main components of any spiritual or religious system; morality (ethics), compassion (forgiveness) and purification. [/ QUOTE ] That doesn't seem to fit with LaVey Satanism, for example, which is more about hedonism and freedom than compassion. [/ QUOTE ] My little brother is about hedonism and freedom too but that doesn't make him a religious system.
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#45
07-20-2007, 04:40 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
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1.does atheism say anything about the nature or purpose of the universe? no. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, usually it says the universe has always existed, and evolved on its own. It says this is at least as possible as saying that God has always existed, and that no one made it. [ QUOTE ] 2.is atheism a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices agreed upon by a number of persons/sects? No, atheism doesn't have any set beliefs. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, it includes the belief that there is not a god and that the universe was not created by a god. Moral codes come from people. [ QUOTE ] 3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of atheists? no. as above, atheism isnt really defined or bounded by a group of people. [/ QUOTE ] There are different versions and groups of atheism just like there are different versions and groups of the religions you're thinking of. Buddhism can be considered atheism, by the way. [ QUOTE ] 4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. Nobody devotes their lives to atheism [/ QUOTE ] Of course they do, in the sense that they devote themselves to what they believe in. They simply have different motivations ("I was commanded by God" would not be one of their motivations.) [ QUOTE ] 5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. If you can find me any atheist rituals, id like to see them. Note that this definition includes faith, which atheism rejects. [/ QUOTE ] On the contrary, many people believe that being atheistic requires faith (and I happen to believe that too.) Some Christians think that faith is not required, since the existence of God etc can be proven logically. Some Christians do not believe this, and believe faith is required. Some atheists believe that faith is not required, since the non-existence of God can be proven logically. Some atheists do not believe this, and believe faith is required. [ QUOTE ] 6. I suppose that this definition is the toughest to refute. But look at how broad it is, if a religion is 'something one believes in and follows devotedly' then isn't being a Green Bay fan a religion? How about vegetarianism? A lot of people believe in vegetarianism, and follow it devotedly, but it is hardly a religion. [/ QUOTE ] That might be true of religions, but it doesn't mean it defines religions. If it is meant to define religions, then clearly atheism is a religion. [ QUOTE ] atheism 1.Absence of belief in the existence of God or gods. 2.Disbelief in the existence of God or gods. [/ QUOTE ] 1. could well mean agnostic, and isn't an accurate meaning for how most people mean atheism. 2. Is not clear. A more accurate version would be "belief in the nonexistence of God or gods". To me there is a clear distinction there. There is a big difference between lacking a belief, and the belief that something is not there.
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#46
07-20-2007, 05:01 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
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saying that atheism may be similar in some respects to some religions is not the same thing as saying atheism is a religion. [/ QUOTE ] I wasn't claiming that atheism is a religion. I was saying his reasons weren't valid.
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#47
07-20-2007, 05:02 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
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I think the problem with that atheist definition is that most atheists are not dogmatic and are open to have their minds changed in light of new evidence. I think by the above definition, you would be hard pressed to find a real "atheist". [/ QUOTE ] Could be. I've certainly met some that fit the above definition, and not many that don't. My sample size means little though, I know.
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#48
07-20-2007, 05:03 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] There are basically three main components of any spiritual or religious system; morality (ethics), compassion (forgiveness) and purification. [/ QUOTE ] That doesn't seem to fit with LaVey Satanism, for example, which is more about hedonism and freedom than compassion. [/ QUOTE ] My little brother is about hedonism and freedom too but that doesn't make him a religious system. [/ QUOTE ] That's really not at all what I was saying.
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#49
07-20-2007, 05:23 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] There are basically three main components of any spiritual or religious system; morality (ethics), compassion (forgiveness) and purification. [/ QUOTE ] That doesn't seem to fit with LaVey Satanism, for example, which is more about hedonism and freedom than compassion. [/ QUOTE ] My little brother is about hedonism and freedom too but that doesn't make him a religious system. [/ QUOTE ] That's really not at all what I was saying. [/ QUOTE ] Think about it, maybe it is.
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#50
07-20-2007, 05:36 PM
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Re: faith, religion, spirituality
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Yes, it includes the belief that there is not a god and that the universe was not created by a god. [/ QUOTE ] You are equivocating the word "belief" here. [ QUOTE ] On the contrary, many people believe that being atheistic requires faith (and I happen to believe that too.) [/ QUOTE ] How does what you and "many people" believe affect what they actually stand for? Hint: it doesn't. [ QUOTE ] Some atheists believe that faith is not required, since the non-existence of God can be proven logically. [/ QUOTE ] o rly? Pls to be showing us that proof.
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