something went wrong there on the turn

[Olrik]

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

flop bet is ok i think? the trouble starts with that turn donk from SB. is that "limit-holdem-mindset" raise too much? fold to the 3bet? i feel completely lost :/

[T. Chance]

Flop bet looks good to me. You're very likely to have the best hand right know, even though someone might have a big draw with AKQJ for instance. A bet here might win the pot or be called by a draw or a single ace.

On turn, I think it depends mostly on your opponent. I don't worry much about AA or AT in his hand, because if he was slowplaying the flop, why would he bet the turn before letting you (or someone else) bet ? He might have two queens in his hands though, but I've seen many times people betting a paired board with a straight or worse. I think capping is good if you think you're against that type of player.
Maybe calling is better, but I certainly don't fold here. There's only two queens left and if he has them both, then so be it, but I think you're ahead enough of the time here to at least call.

Maybe this is just a donk advice so I'm interested to know what the more experimented players would do here.

[brian64]

At these limits I wouldn't rule out the SB holding KJ, and of course he could have QT. Unless you have a reading on him I can't see folding after the 3-bet with 8BB in the pot. If he turns over QQxx then console yourself with the fact that he was drawing to two outs, so you should soon win your money back from him. If he has AA then you have learned something about how he plays when he flops a monster.

[cjs]

nh

I'm calling down but expect to be shown QQ or AA alot. Underfulls are iffy hands after a three bet but I see a showdown in limit.

[TheCount212]

I think you played it fine. The river call is prudent.

[Buzz]

Hi Olrik -

1st betting round: What an ugly starting hand! But you get to see the flop from the unraised blind.

Fine.

2nd betting round: And then the flop has a pair of tens, making you trip tens. And you immediately wonder if one of your three opponents has a ten with a king or an ace or a holds AAXY. Might MP1 have raised before the flop with AAXY? MP1 posted and sometimes people tend to raise when they post. But MP1 didn't raise before the flop. I don't think MP1 has a pair of aces.

On to MP2. Might MP2 have raised before the flop with AAXY? MP2 has less reason to raise than MP1 and is therefore logically less likely to raise. MP2 might have AAXY.

And SP also might have AAXY.

Any of the three might have ATXY or KTXY - or just TXYZ.

At any rate you bet and get three calls.

Fine.

3rd betting round: You make a full house and low is no longer possible. Of course you plan to bet!

But then SB bets before you get a chance!

SB didn't bet the flop, and just called your bet after MP1 and MP2 also called. Why is SB betting first? It must be either (1) because SB has a monster and is afraid you won't bet, (2) because SB has made a straight and thinks nobody has a full house, or (3) because SB is making the mistake of playing too boldly.

By monster, I mean AAXY, QQXY, or ATXY. Any of these is possible for SB. SB also could have QTXY, which is easily good enough to bet.

At this point, I would just call. I would want MP1 and MP2 to also call. And if SB is doing something stupid, I want him to do it again on the fourth betting round. Finally I would call because it's not far fetched for SB to have a monster here. Here's my chart:<ul type="square">AAAQ 2
AAAT 1
AAAZ 38
AAQQ 3
AAQT 6
AAQZ 228
AATZ 114
AAZY 2109
AQQT 3
AQQZ 114
AQTZ 228
ATZY 2109
QQTZ 38
QQZY 703
QTZY 1406[/list]That all adds up to 7102, or 5696 without the QTZY.

7102/135751 is about 5%.
5696/135751 is only about 4%.

I haven't checked the math. There are a bunch of places to go wrong. It's easy to make some stupid mistake in these charts. I typed straight down, doing the math as I went. Didn't take long, maybe fifteen minutes. I'm not going to check it because the final result seems not out of line to me. Four percent seems reasonable to me as the possibility of a random hand having a better full house after the turn.

That's low enough not to be worried about before SB bets. SB might not have a hand in the 4% group that beats our full house at this point. But after SB bets, it becomes a concern. SB is betting as though he does.

Well... SB could also just be holding a ten and over-valuing it at this point. There are 1*38*37*36/6=8436 ways SB could have a ten without an ace or a queen, about 6%. But betting a lone ten at this point would seem very poor play. SB should have bet the ten or should possibly had gone for a check-raise with the ten on the previous betting round. But SB didn't do that. Is SB stupid enough to bet two pairs, aces and queens? You know your opponents better than I do. Mine are not that stupid.

At any rate, before SB bets, a better full house than yours is very unlikely (only about 4%). But why would SB bet without one???

I cannot think of a logical reason and therefore I'm just calling it down.

4th betting round: If SB doesn't bet the river, then I'll bet it. In so doing, I'll possibly fall into a trap, but I'll figure probably SB was simply doing something strange and illogical on the turn (3rd betting round).

Buzz

[howzit]

you played it fine. especially against weaker players.

one more way to play is call turn, raise river, fold to a 3 bet. this wil save you a bet against solid players.

[Olrik]

raise/fold the river... hmm interesting line to say the least!

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
you played it fine. especially against weaker players.

[/ QUOTE ]Howzit - The double bet knocks out MP1 and MP2. Does Hero really want to do that?

In my humble opinion, you play this game best when you make some sense of your opponent's bets. That involves putting them on cards such that their betting makes sense.

Omaha-8 is a strange game in that you can aggressively play in situations where caution is warranted and still end up a winner. That's partly because your opponents may not very well know what they are doing, and also partly because of the fundamental drawing nature of the game. (You can get lucky where you either make your draw or your opponent misses).

[ QUOTE ]
...fold to a 3 bet...

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not averse to occasionally folding to a 3-bet, but I think raising, planning to fold to a 3-bet if re-raised is a short sighted way to play the game, if you do that more than just occasionally.

But as with most things in poker, what to do depends in large part on your opponents. Perhaps your opponents are not able to exploit that line of play. Mine are, and I am.

Buzz