*** THE OFFICIAL VINCE YOUNG MADDEN JINX THREAD ***

[Franchise 60]

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Am I the only one that remembers how bad the Titans were pre Vince, and how they are favorites to make a Wild Card with Vince Young? Not to mention the Titans might have the least amount of offensive talent in the entire NFL outside of Young.

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Am I the only one who notices that the internet sucked a lot before I was born but it is pretty much awesome since I was born?

IOW, correlation != something something something

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Thats a great point, because you have as much influence on the internet as a quarterback does on an NFL teams W-L record.

[vhawk01]

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Am I the only one that remembers how bad the Titans were pre Vince, and how they are favorites to make a Wild Card with Vince Young? Not to mention the Titans might have the least amount of offensive talent in the entire NFL outside of Young.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who notices that the internet sucked a lot before I was born but it is pretty much awesome since I was born?

IOW, correlation != something something something

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Thats a great point, because you have as much influence on the internet as a quarterback does on an NFL teams W-L record.

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Well thats kind of begging the question isn't it?

But that is sort of the point anyway. In my example is OBVIOUS that I'm not directly causing the effect. In the football example is is far less obvious but it is still a fallacious argument. Thats kind of the point of analogies, ya know? Compare one thing to a more obvious example of that same thing?

[Franchise 60]

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Am I the only one that remembers how bad the Titans were pre Vince, and how they are favorites to make a Wild Card with Vince Young? Not to mention the Titans might have the least amount of offensive talent in the entire NFL outside of Young.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who notices that the internet sucked a lot before I was born but it is pretty much awesome since I was born?

IOW, correlation != something something something

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a great point, because you have as much influence on the internet as a quarterback does on an NFL teams W-L record.

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Well thats kind of begging the question isn't it?

But that is sort of the point anyway. In my example is OBVIOUS that I'm not directly causing the effect. In the football example is is far less obvious but it is still a fallacious argument. Thats kind of the point of analogies, ya know? Compare one thing to a more obvious example of that same thing?

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You are implying that you obviously have no influence on the awesomeness of the internet, just like VY has no influence on the W-L record of the Titans, I grasp that concept. But that doesn't make you correct, or prove a point, because VY has directly influenced the W-L record of the Titans. Ya know?

Congratulations, you created an analogy. One that is far from the truth. Ya know?

[bottomset]

the Titans are 3-2 with 2close losses vs very tough teams because they have a top3defense(potentially the best overall) not because of Vince Young

[vhawk01]

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Am I the only one that remembers how bad the Titans were pre Vince, and how they are favorites to make a Wild Card with Vince Young? Not to mention the Titans might have the least amount of offensive talent in the entire NFL outside of Young.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who notices that the internet sucked a lot before I was born but it is pretty much awesome since I was born?

IOW, correlation != something something something

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a great point, because you have as much influence on the internet as a quarterback does on an NFL teams W-L record.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well thats kind of begging the question isn't it?

But that is sort of the point anyway. In my example is OBVIOUS that I'm not directly causing the effect. In the football example is is far less obvious but it is still a fallacious argument. Thats kind of the point of analogies, ya know? Compare one thing to a more obvious example of that same thing?

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You are implying that you obviously have no influence on the awesomeness of the internet, just like VY has no influence on the W-L record of the Titans, I grasp that concept. But that doesn't make you correct, or prove a point, because VY has directly influenced the W-L record of the Titans. Ya know?

Congratulations, you created an analogy. One that is far from the truth. Ya know?

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That is not even close to what I am implying. I am implying that using the coincidence of my being alive to demonstrate I am responsible for the internet is fallacious, JUST THE SAME AS using the coincidence of Tennesseee winning games and Vince Young being their starting QB to demonstrate he is responsible for those wins is fallacious. He still might be responsible for the wins, but you cannot use the fact that he happened to be there and they happened to win games as an argument. This is called correlation. Correlation ALONE proves nothing. Thats the point of the analogy.

If you want a make an argument that he is RESPONSIBLE for those wins, you need correlation, which you have, but you also need more, usually some mechanism whereby he creates wins. Having a QB rating at the bottom of the league and 3 TDs versus 6 INTs is good evidence AGAINST this mechanism.

For some reason, in sports, people think making arguments like "ZOMG that cant be a coincidence" is somehow legit. Lots of things correlate with lots of other things. You need to make actual arguments to show he is RESPONSIBLE. And it isn't looking good.

If you want me to nerd this thread up further I can link the 9 requirements for establishing causality. Its actually kind of neat to approach sports arguments in this way.

[Franchise 60]

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Am I the only one that remembers how bad the Titans were pre Vince, and how they are favorites to make a Wild Card with Vince Young? Not to mention the Titans might have the least amount of offensive talent in the entire NFL outside of Young.

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This is my original post. The point of this post is to oppose the comments that VY "sucks." I understand that the Titans strength is their defense, this isn't a hard concept to grasp. My point is that VY has zero offensive talent. They have the worst receiver/te group in the NFL, and one of the worst groups of RB's, yet the team still wins with him at QB. The point of saying this, is that if he was an awful player, with no offensive weapons, and a great defense, they would still lose games. Obviously he isn't one of the best qb's in the league, my main point if that he has nothing to work with offensively and he is getting ripped when his team has a 11-7 record with him through 18 games starting in the toughest division in football.

Obviously the defense is the main reason that they are winning games, but he has still had a positive influence on the teams win loss record, and this is without very little help on offense. I don't understand why this is a view that so many people are coming down so hard on.

[vhawk01]

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Am I the only one that remembers how bad the Titans were pre Vince, and how they are favorites to make a Wild Card with Vince Young? Not to mention the Titans might have the least amount of offensive talent in the entire NFL outside of Young.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my original post. The point of this post is to oppose the comments that VY "sucks." I understand that the Titans strength is their defense, this isn't a hard concept to grasp. My point is that VY has zero offensive talent. They have the worst receiver/te group in the NFL, and one of the worst groups of RB's, yet the team still wins with him at QB. The point of saying this, is that if he was an awful player, with no offensive weapons, and a great defense, they would still lose games. Obviously he isn't one of the best qb's in the league, my main point if that he has nothing to work with offensively and he is getting ripped when his team has a 11-7 record with him through 18 games starting in the toughest division in football.

Obviously the defense is the main reason that they are winning games, but he has still had a positive influence on the teams win loss record, and this is without very little help on offense. I don't understand why this is a view that so many people are coming down so hard on.

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Do you think it is possible that Vince Young HURTS the teams chances to win and they still manage to win? I don't mean is it likely, just is it POSSIBLE?

[Franchise 60]

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[ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one that remembers how bad the Titans were pre Vince, and how they are favorites to make a Wild Card with Vince Young? Not to mention the Titans might have the least amount of offensive talent in the entire NFL outside of Young.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my original post. The point of this post is to oppose the comments that VY "sucks." I understand that the Titans strength is their defense, this isn't a hard concept to grasp. My point is that VY has zero offensive talent. They have the worst receiver/te group in the NFL, and one of the worst groups of RB's, yet the team still wins with him at QB. The point of saying this, is that if he was an awful player, with no offensive weapons, and a great defense, they would still lose games. Obviously he isn't one of the best qb's in the league, my main point if that he has nothing to work with offensively and he is getting ripped when his team has a 11-7 record with him through 18 games starting in the toughest division in football.

Obviously the defense is the main reason that they are winning games, but he has still had a positive influence on the teams win loss record, and this is without very little help on offense. I don't understand why this is a view that so many people are coming down so hard on.

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Do you think it is possible that Vince Young HURTS the teams chances to win and they still manage to win? I don't mean is it likely, just is it POSSIBLE?

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Do you think its POSSIBLE that the fact that he has zero offensive weapons severely hurts his stats? Do you think its POSSIBLE that he has certain intangibles and skills such as leadership/4th quarter comebacks/running ability that aren't shown in his QB Rating?

These are all as much possible as the fact that he hurts the titans.

Like honestly, what numbers do we expect from this guy with the players around him on offense? Am I really incredibly far fetched in thinking that VY is better than his numbers say, and that he has a positive influence on his teams win loss record?

I've never said he is the sole reason the the Titans have become competitive, if thats how it sounded initially I apologize for not explaining my point better, I assumed it was obvious that the Titans D was the main reason for their success. But I strongly believe VY has had a positive influence on the Titans record and success, and the only evidence I have for that is that their win loss record is better with him than without him, along with the previous mentioned intagibles, but thats enough for me.

[vhawk01]

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[ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one that remembers how bad the Titans were pre Vince, and how they are favorites to make a Wild Card with Vince Young? Not to mention the Titans might have the least amount of offensive talent in the entire NFL outside of Young.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my original post. The point of this post is to oppose the comments that VY "sucks." I understand that the Titans strength is their defense, this isn't a hard concept to grasp. My point is that VY has zero offensive talent. They have the worst receiver/te group in the NFL, and one of the worst groups of RB's, yet the team still wins with him at QB. The point of saying this, is that if he was an awful player, with no offensive weapons, and a great defense, they would still lose games. Obviously he isn't one of the best qb's in the league, my main point if that he has nothing to work with offensively and he is getting ripped when his team has a 11-7 record with him through 18 games starting in the toughest division in football.

Obviously the defense is the main reason that they are winning games, but he has still had a positive influence on the teams win loss record, and this is without very little help on offense. I don't understand why this is a view that so many people are coming down so hard on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think it is possible that Vince Young HURTS the teams chances to win and they still manage to win? I don't mean is it likely, just is it POSSIBLE?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think its POSSIBLE that the fact that he has zero offensive weapons severely hurts his stats? Do you think its POSSIBLE that he has certain intangibles and skills such as leadership/4th quarter comebacks/running ability that aren't shown in his QB Rating?

These are all as much possible as the fact that he hurts the titans.

Like honestly, what numbers do we expect from this guy with the players around him on offense? Am I really incredibly far fetched in thinking that VY is better than his numbers say, and that he has a positive influence on his teams win loss record?

I've never said he is the sole reason the the Titans have become competitive, if thats how it sounded initially I apologize for not explaining my point better, I assumed it was obvious that the Titans D was the main reason for their success. But I strongly believe VY has had a positive influence on the Titans record and success, and the only evidence I have for that is that their win loss record is better with him than without him, along with the previous mentioned intagibles, but thats enough for me.

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Of course those things are possible. I'd say they are even very likely. The reason I'm asking if its possible for him to hurt the team and for them to still win is to make the point that winning doesn't prove anything. It would be a pretty ridiculous argument to claim that J.D. Drew is an underrated player and deserves credit for the Red Sox being the best team in baseball this year right? I mean, obviously he is clutch and makes the rest of the guys around him better, and hey, it cant be a coincidence that he is on the team and they won all those games! Then you'd point out that he was a net negative just not negative enough to cost them the game.

Of course NFL QB is a little different because its the highest leverage position (I'm almost certain). So, if he is a net negative, he is bound to be a HUGE net negative and its unlikely they can overcome this. But its still possible.

Of course VY would be better with some real weapons. EVERYONE would be better if they had better players around them. But that doesn't mean he is good. You can't just say "Hey he might be a star if he was on the Pats therefore ignore the fact that he currently basically sucks." He's bad. He's not bad enough to lose games, apparently, but he is bad. Below average, for sure.

[dlk9s]

I hope AP and the Vikings enjoy this season, because he's next.