The Uncertainty Principle

private joker · #1 08-19-2007, 07:18 AM

Live 30/60. Villain in this hand is Heisenb3rg, TAG 2+2er with a lot of online 6-max LHE experience, a style that still informs a lot of his live full ring play -- for better and for worse.

SB in this hand is a tight-passive lady; BB is a pro regular who plays tight, aggressive, and straight-forward.

Heisenb3rg posts in the CO. Folded to me in late middle position with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and I make it twice as many bets as the starting limit. He calls, blinds call too.

Flop K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Checked to me, I bet, Heisenb3rg calls, both blinds fold.

Turn 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. What's my action? How often am I walking into a raise here? If you're bet/calling or check/calling, what do you do on the river? And if you're bet/folding, why aren't you check/folding?

Other things to consider/discuss: what hands should a good player call this flop with considering there are 2 players to act behind us? Discounting hands where you're planning some multi-street float/bluff, what range should you be holding here in his shoes, and how much should you mix up calling or raising this flop? Also, given your range, what hands should you be 3-betting PF knowing my opening range is going to be a bit light given the dead money (CO's post, SB + BB in a 2/3 structure) in the pot? And what hands do you just call?

I'm asking all these questions because maybe the hand itself isn't very interesting, but the situation is so common that I'd like to see a lot of debate over various lines, ranges, and actions for all three streets so far. Enjoy.

SNOWBALL · #2 08-19-2007, 07:31 AM

It's utterly bizzare to me that he didn't 3 bet you. Like the only hand I can think of that a good player would simply call with is AA.

smurfitup · #3 08-19-2007, 07:43 AM

why? he posted in the cutoff. i can think of a lot of hands that i'd call with in that spot.

vmacosta · #4 08-19-2007, 08:07 AM

pj,
Assuming heisenberg plays like many 6max regulars, you have to bet the turn every time. A raise is not coming as often as you think and he will almost never bet a worse hand if you check.

Whether to fold to a raise is more player specific, but first start with a bet and then we can talk about how to handle a raise. Not knowing much about heisenberg other than his posts, I'd be inclined to fold to a raise.

SNOWBALL · #5 08-19-2007, 08:31 AM

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why? he posted in the cutoff. i can think of a lot of hands that i'd call with in that spot.

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Because he gets to put in 2 bets to win a 5.5 sb pot in position HU. I mean, isn't it worth 3betting any 2 here? I think I read a Mattros article about this a while ago.

edit: I guess the fact that this is unclear means my read sucks. I wasn't trying to argue that villain has AA here. I was actually sort of seguing into a hijack on preflop play, which I guess is a sucky thing to do. OK, off to the search function for me.

HOWMANY · #6 08-19-2007, 08:38 AM

Everyone fastplays everything online.

Or maybe I just imagine that they do because I do.

surfdoc · #7 08-19-2007, 10:29 AM

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why? he posted in the cutoff. i can think of a lot of hands that i'd call with in that spot.

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Because he gets to put in 2 bets to win a 5.5 sb pot in position HU. I mean, isn't it worth 3betting any 2 here? I think I read a Mattros article about this a while ago.

edit: I guess the fact that this is unclear means my read sucks. I wasn't trying to argue that villain has AA here. I was actually sort of seguing into a hijack on preflop play, which I guess is a sucky thing to do. OK, off to the search function for me.

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There are all kinds of hands where calling after posting in the CO will be the best play. Having position on a TAG who can make some folds will allow you to play a pretty wide range when it is only one more bet. Things like small suited connectors/gappers that play decently multiway won't really want to get it HU with the best hand or reopen the betting since a good player will be aware of what is happening and should widen his capping range.

Heisenb3rg · #8 08-19-2007, 11:19 AM

This really comes down to how much credit you give me to percieve the situation and wheter Id have to balls to exploit it.

If your not confident on your read of my play, or if I could possibly be outleveling you.. Its probabily best to play as unexploitable as possible.. (I notice you did ask this)

That probabily involves seeing lots of showdowns given that, your PF range is fairly wide considering that I posted in the CO. My PF range is huge and the players behind me were tight... And the pot is a decent size.

Heisenb3rg · #9 08-19-2007, 11:35 AM

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Discounting hands where you're planning some multi-street float/bluff, what range should you be holding here in his shoes, and how much should you mix up calling or raising this flop?

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I think without adequate steal equity on the turn or river the only hands it's profitble to call the flop with are trip kings or a pair of eights.

hicherbie · #10 08-19-2007, 11:54 AM

if pjs range is wide and if kk8 doesn't hit many hands why wouldn't you think you have steal equity?