final table 4 handed donked away tournament- advice plz

[prolax13]

hey... i hadnt raised UTG in quite some time. heres the HH, i cant convert , not sure now but... i really just wanted to pick up the blinds/ante but i guess thats not the best idea., esp utg.

Stage #643501808 Tourney ID 1412465 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4000 - 2007-02-15 03:53:50 (ET)
Table: 32 (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 2 - PIMPKDAWG ($77761.82 in chips)
Seat 4 - KBAKASILK ($84671.96 in chips)
Seat 5 - TSPINELLA ($83448.70 in chips)
Seat 6 - WATCHMAN369 ($138117.52 in chips)
PIMPKDAWG - Ante $200
KBAKASILK - Ante $200
TSPINELLA - Ante $200
WATCHMAN369 - Ante $200
PIMPKDAWG - Posts small blind $2000
KBAKASILK - Posts big blind $4000
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to TSPINELLA [Qc 8s]
TSPINELLA - Raises $20000 to $20000
WATCHMAN369 - Calls $20000
PIMPKDAWG - Folds
KBAKASILK - Calls $16000
*** FLOP *** [8h 3d Jc]
KBAKASILK - Checks
TSPINELLA - Checks
WATCHMAN369 - Checks
*** TURN *** [8h 3d Jc] [7h]
KBAKASILK - Bets $20000
TSPINELLA - All-In(Raise) $63248.70 to $63248.70
WATCHMAN369 - Folds
KBAKASILK - Calls $43248.70
*** RIVER *** [8h 3d Jc 7h] [Kh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
KBAKASILK - Shows [As Jd] (One pair, jacks)
TSPINELLA - Shows [Qc 8s] (One pair, eights)
KBAKASILK Collects $189297.40 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($189297.40)
Board [8h 3d Jc 7h Kh]
Seat 2: PIMPKDAWG (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: KBAKASILK (big blind) won Total ($189297.40) HI$189297.40) with One pair, jacks [As Jd - P:Jd,B:Jc,P:As,B:Kh,B:8h]
Seat 5: TSPINELLA HI:lost with One pair, eights [Qc 8s - P:8s,B:8h,B:Kh,P:Qc,B:Jc]
Seat 6: WATCHMAN369 (dealer) Folded on the TURN





payout (which im sure is nothing big to anyone here but im trying to build my roll- and payout was important bc b4 tourney started i blew my bankroll in 3/6 limit - heres payout for top 4

1st $1601.60
2nd $1019.20
3rd $675.58
4th $465.92

[beenben]

that's WAY too big of a raise Pre-flop - you should be raising about half that 10k or 12k, maybe 15k, but certainly not 20k. that's a quarter of your stack. 10k-15k should get the blinds to fold if they don't have anytyhing, it doesn't commit too much of your stack. You can try a raise UTG, especially four handed, but don't make the amount so high that you can't get away from the hand.

now on the flop, you missed and there's only one scary card on the board. If you'd have bet less, you could continuation bet, but here I agree with your check. the calls indicated strength. you were on a steel with an average hand. BB must have a strong hand.

on the turn, I hate your push - you have a medium pair with a good kicker. strength has been shown. you've got enough chips to work with at these blind levels.

[betgo]

You have 21xBB. Raising 5xBB almost pot commits you. I would not raise more than 12K UTG/CO, particularly with a hand you are not willing to commit your chips with.

As played, I probably just push the flop with 2nd pair. You really can't cbet/fold, because you are 21% versus TPTK with 5 outs.

On the turn, the bet came from the BB, who could have checked to the raiser on the flop. It's a difficult situation, but I don't think the push is terrible.

[Soulman]

[ QUOTE ]
You have 21xBB. Raising 5xBB almost pot commits you. I would not raise more than 12K UTG/CO, particularly with a hand you are not willing to commit your chips with.

As played, I probably just push the flop with 2nd pair. You really can't cbet/fold, because you are 21% versus TPTK with 5 outs.

On the turn, the bet came from the BB, who could have checked to the raiser on the flop. It's a difficult situation, but I don't think the push is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Two people call the giant overraise PF and you push in with 2nd pair here? I'm pretty sure that can't be right...

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have 21xBB. Raising 5xBB almost pot commits you. I would not raise more than 12K UTG/CO, particularly with a hand you are not willing to commit your chips with.

As played, I probably just push the flop with 2nd pair. You really can't cbet/fold, because you are 21% versus TPTK with 5 outs.

On the turn, the bet came from the BB, who could have checked to the raiser on the flop. It's a difficult situation, but I don't think the push is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Two people call the giant overraise PF and you push in with 2nd pair here? I'm pretty sure that can't be right...

[/ QUOTE ]
Your remaining stack is about the size of the pot and you are about 20% versus top pair or 99-AA except JJ. What are you going to do at this point? Pushing isn't great, but neither is check/folding.

[Soulman]

Math later, go home now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Math later, go home now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Without getting to mathematical, the point I am making is that once you raise 5xBB, get two callers and create a gigantic pot, it may be better to just push and probably fold out some higher 8s and underpairs that are ahead of you. You may be ahead anyway. If you are called, you are probably 20%, but you are getting 2-1 pot odds. From a cEV point of view, pushing the flop is probably best.

Once you cbet half pot, it doesn't make sense to fold, since you are getting about 5-1 pot odds and you are probably a 4-1 dog.

I guess you could check the flop and fold to the 1/3 pot bet on the turn.

This is why I prefer to either push preflop or make a small raise. When you make a huge raise like this, you often get in a stacky situation preflop. Also, there is a reason why people raise 5xBB with AK or TT or something. With those hands you don't mind building a big pot or taking the blinds. Here you build a big pot with Q8o and have to figure out what to do with second pair.

[Soulman]

I understood what you meant, I just think it's unlikely that at least one of the cold callers haven't got you beat solid with a higher pair. I'm basing this on standard play, since OP didn't include reads. If that is correct, pushing here is not +cEV. So basically, what I'm saying is that if you raise this much in this situation and get two cold callers, you should probably give up on most flops. The point is kinda moot though, since raising 5x PF here obviously sucks.

[Merek007]

[/ QUOTE ]
Two people call the giant overraise PF and you push in with 2nd pair here? I'm pretty sure that can't be right...

[/ QUOTE ]

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I understood what you meant, I just think it's unlikely that at least one of the cold callers haven't got you beat solid with a higher pair. I'm basing this on standard play, since OP didn't include reads. If that is correct, pushing here is not +cEV. So basically, what I'm saying is that if you raise this much in this situation and get two cold callers, you should probably give up on most flops. The point is kinda moot though, since raising 5x PF here obviously sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

So they have solid hands. Won't TT and 99 usually fold to the push, and AK and AQ are more likely to fold and are behind.

I mean this is a fine mess OP got into with the 5xBB raise with Q8o, but at this point I think it is in for a penny in for a pound.

If you get called, you are probably about 20%, putting in 33% of the money. Seems like a good semibluff.