Official Full TIlt Regulars Thread: Part II

[anjichpa]

how exactly does one plan a hand?

there is way too much undisclosed information to "plan" a hand in advance unless one of you is shortstacked and poker is way too dynamic to plan anything, imo

leverage isn't the same thing, however, as being able to plan your hand
all you can do is try to make the best decision you can with the information you have at each point in time

jamming pf would've made absolutely no sense, as i would've been raising $40 on top of the $2 3bet.

because of the level of aggression i'd exhibited in the hands prior to this, i felt there was a decent chance he'd be 3betting light for him (he'd been playing solid TAG)

as far as your rationale for not 4-betting, here are my thoughts

1. if i call OOP, i'm left playing an unmade hand in a pot with very little definition of my opponent's hand. i'm not donk betting into him in this situation, and if i check, he'll c-bet 99% of the time and i fold. if an A flops, he shuts down unless he has AK or a weaker A, and my implied odds against him weren't that great if he had a weaker A. if the K flops, i still have no definition of his hand, and i might lose a big pot to AA, an underset, or even 2 pair

2. being OOP is an argument for 4betting here, IMO. i've an unmade hand and want to shut him out. you'll have to understand my thoughts of his range more to understand why i think this was the correct play so i'll address that first

3. my initial range of the button 3-bet is as follows: 66-AA, A-9 or higher, maybe suited connectors or high cards

with that initial range, i feel i can get him to fold 66-TT, A9-AJ (probably AQ,too). If he has JJ or QQ, he has to make a very difficult decision (jam and maybe be dominated, fold what looks like the best hand, or smooth-call and ? post-flop especially if he ends up with an OP). i doubt he smooth calls with JJ or QQ. even KK runs the risk of the A flopping.

thus, if he 5bets, i can almost certainly fold. if he calls, i tighten his range up to AK, AQ, or 88-AA with a very heavy skew towards AK, AA and to a lesser extent- KK or AQ.

This is why i'm not sure if leading into him post-flop was the correct play.

if i had AK, there are 6 ways for him to make another AK, 5 of those AKs fold (AK hearts obvious goes in). The same is true of AQ even if its less likely). assuming i had AK, there are 3 ways to make AA or KK. if he's slowplaying AA or KK, he shoves all in on the flop regardless.

if we restrict his post-flop range to AA, KK, and AK, there are a total of 7 hands he shoves on the flop, and 5 that he folds. if this is indeed his range, my ~pot sized bet was a -ev play.

however, i think that if we include AQ in his range, it becomes a nice +ev bet. even without AQ in his range, i think leading the flop is at least a break even play, because he's less likely to have KK than AA or AK (KK is more likely to jam pf)

IMO, the only reason not to 4bet pre is that if i lose the hand, i don't have as much implied odds in subsequent hands.

i'd argue that meta-game makes up for this, as after the hand, i look like a total lunatic, and am further able to get people to commit money with marginal hands

[En Passant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
More 50nl:

Thoughts on

HGreener (I think he moved up)
SooStacks
Silent_Assassin3

[/ QUOTE ]

soostacks is killin it on my database like 3k hands up 10+BI ..ive played him only a couple times and he's pretty nitty 17/11/3

[/ QUOTE ]

I was HGreener (changed name to Dirk Diggier as I didn't like having my real name on FT). I also have used the name En Passant in the past. I 12 tabled NL 50 and then moved up to NL 100. I just made a deposit and will be playing NL 50 again sometime this week.

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
how exactly does one plan a hand?

there is way too much undisclosed information to "plan" a hand in advance unless one of you is shortstacked and poker is way too dynamic to plan anything, imo

[/ QUOTE ]

By planning a hand, I am talking about thinking about how I will react to my opponents actions before I act myself. If I 4bet and he 5-bets, what do I do? If he calls, what do I do on a whiffed flop, a flop I hit?
[ QUOTE ]

leverage isn't the same thing, however, as being able to plan your hand
all you can do is try to make the best decision you can with the information you have at each point in time

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to take all of the current info into account, plus think about future actions before you act as I mentioned already above.
[ QUOTE ]


jamming pf would've made absolutely no sense, as i would've been raising $40 on top of the $2 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously jamming PF is horrible, as is putting in 20% of your stack PF, then an additional 30% on the flop, only to fold to a raise!
[ QUOTE ]


because of the level of aggression i'd exhibited in the hands prior to this, i felt there was a decent chance he'd be 3betting light for him (he'd been playing solid TAG)

as far as your rationale for not 4-betting, here are my thoughts

1. if i call OOP, i'm left playing an unmade hand in a pot with very little definition of my opponent's hand. i'm not donk betting into him in this situation, and if i check, he'll c-bet 99% of the time and i fold. if an A flops, he shuts down unless he has AK or a weaker A, and my implied odds against him weren't that great if he had a weaker A. if the K flops, i still have no definition of his hand, and i might lose a big pot to AA, an underset, or even 2 pair

2. being OOP is an argument for 4betting here, IMO. i've an unmade hand and want to shut him out. you'll have to understand my thoughts of his range more to understand why i think this was the correct play so i'll address that first

3. my initial range of the button 3-bet is as follows: 66-AA, A-9 or higher, maybe suited connectors or high cards

with that initial range, i feel i can get him to fold 66-TT, A9-AJ (probably AQ,too). If he has JJ or QQ, he has to make a very difficult decision (jam and maybe be dominated, fold what looks like the best hand, or smooth-call and ? post-flop especially if he ends up with an OP). i doubt he smooth calls with JJ or QQ. even KK runs the risk of the A flopping.

thus, if he 5bets, i can almost certainly fold. if he calls, i tighten his range up to AK, AQ, or 88-AA with a very heavy skew towards AK, AA and to a lesser extent- KK or AQ.

This is why i'm not sure if leading into him post-flop was the correct play.


[/ QUOTE ]

So fine.. he calls and you are now CRUSHED by his range! Bet/folding this flop is just so bad!

If you do decide to 4bet, which is fine IF you think he may be 3betting light, but may not be... really is read dependent, you need to size your bets better!

If I was forced to 4bet there, I would make it $12-$14. By doing so I am committed to call a push (not too happy about it, but that's where the 4-bet puts us), but more importantly you can shove on any flop. I just can not express how bad a bet/fold is on the flop in this hand.[ QUOTE ]


if i had AK, there are 6 ways for him to make another AK, 5 of those AKs fold (AK hearts obvious goes in). The same is true of AQ even if its less likely). assuming i had AK, there are 3 ways to make AA or KK. if he's slowplaying AA or KK, he shoves all in on the flop regardless.

if we restrict his post-flop range to AA, KK, and AK, there are a total of 7 hands he shoves on the flop, and 5 that he folds. if this is indeed his range, my ~pot sized bet was a -ev play.

however, i think that if we include AQ in his range, it becomes a nice +ev bet. even without AQ in his range, i think leading the flop is at least a break even play, because he's less likely to have KK than AA or AK (KK is more likely to jam pf)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so bad.. you should really do the EV calcs with and w/out him holding AQ. You seem like one of those players that invests 70% of his stack only to fold to a minraise on the river, or folds for a $16 bet into a $215 pot. You should be planning to NOT get into situations like these.[ QUOTE ]

IMO, the only reason not to 4bet pre is that if i lose the hand, i don't have as much implied odds in subsequent hands.

i'd argue that meta-game makes up for this, as after the hand, i look like a total lunatic, and am further able to get people to commit money with marginal hands

[/ QUOTE ]

meta game is good when you 3bet light and fold to a 4bet when deep or call a short all-in getting 2:1 w/ K9s. The only meta happening when you fold like you did in this hand is let people that they can push their semi-bluffs super hard and gain additional FE when there should be none.

<font color="blue">Seriously... start a new thread about this hand and look at the responses!</font>

[anjichpa]

well, i just wanted to argue with you about it....

and you haven't convinced me at all that i made a wrong move on that hand.

if you wanna talk about it more, pm me, otherwise i'll just let it die

if you notice, though, i did "plan" my hand

and if i 4 bet to commit myself, i might as well just jam

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i just wanted to argue with you about it....

and you haven't convinced me at all that i made a wrong move on that hand.

if you wanna talk about it more, pm me, otherwise i'll just let it die

if you notice, though, i did "plan" my hand

and if i 4 bet to commit myself, i might as well just jam

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to discuss it, get it out of this thread and into its own thread... this is why these forums exist.

So your plan, included you making a large c-bet if you whiffed when you are behind his range big time?

[albedoa]

[ QUOTE ]
because of the level of aggression i'd exhibited in the hands prior to this, i felt there was a decent chance he'd be 3betting light for him (he'd been playing solid TAG)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry to butt in here, but I just looked up the session and I was playing at 29/24 against you. Is this TAG? I thought you 4bet because of how aggressive I was, not the other way around.

Edit: Actually, you were playing at 41/26. Damn.

Edit 2: This happened 25 minutes before the other hand. We were prolly out to get each other that day (I'm SB). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $57.90
UTG: $24.65
CO: $24.15
BTN: $55.35
SB: $84.70

Pre-Flop:
2 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $0.75</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $2.80</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $8</font>, SB folds

Results: $5.85 Pot
BTN mucked and WON $5.85 (+$3.05 NET)

[Check_The_Nuts]

my take on the 4bet hand,

albs is correct IMO that 4betting AK is completely standard there. Deep maybe not so much, but yeah I would probably still 4bet it cause postflop OOP kinda sucks.

Everything about the flop bet I don't like. The bet size and the fact u bet it on that Q-high board. If you were one buyin deep this bet size would be terrible, all the sudden its OK if ur more than one buyin deep. Bad rationale.

Not to mention the two hearts, just gives him one more hand (AKhh) that he can play back at u with. Or any suited crap he may call with preflop.

[albedoa]

Whoops, you incorrectly cited me.

Your point about the bet size is a good one, though.

[volcomsilver808]

Anyone got any stats on idoubledonk?

[Stoneflip]

Stoneflip's in the house!~!!






(umm anyone got notes on me?)