example of police coercion

[PLOlover]

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57733

basically motorists are tricked into complying with outrageous things like giving blood samples. this is why you must learn to say no to police. this has always gone on among lower class people, but now it is being expanded into middle class and general society.

[RR]

I was planning to post about this. The wife and I were driving the other day and saw the news truck and then that night we saw the story on the news. I didn't read the article but in the interview with the Gilpin County sheriff he apologized for allowing deputies to participate.

[bkholdem]

When interacting with law enforcement it is always voluntary unless you are detained or arrested.

So no matter how a cop starts talking to you or what he asks you, your response should be (assuming he's hassling you and you are not pleased by his presence) "Am I under arrest?" No matter what his response is...such as an authorative tone "Did I say your under arrest?!?..bla, bla.."

the next words out of your mouth should be "Am I free to leave?"

Either you are free to leave or you are being legally detained.

If he says "Let me see what's in your pockets" Your response should be:

"Is that an order or a request, because I do not consent to searches"

Same goes wiht your car, when he implies you should allow it if you have nothing to hide "I am not interested in discussing any of that with you, I do not consent to searches, may I leave now?"

Basically he can pat you down for weapons and run your ID to see if your wanted, but THAT's IT unless your under arrest. The rest of your interactions with him are completely voluntary (they are trained to intimidate you so you FEEL like you have to go along with what they say/ask.

If you are detained, assume you are under arrest and state that you are not interested in discussing anything with him. If he threatens to bring the dogs to sniff your car or threatens to take you to the station your response is
"Officer, I am in a hurry, may I leave now?"

95% of the 'power' police get is GIVEN to them by unwitting citizens who do not assert their rights.

[qwnu]

[ QUOTE ]
When interacting with law enforcement it is always voluntary unless you are detained or arrested.

[/ QUOTE ]
Without disputing the general thrust of your post, I don't think this is completely accurate.

Scenario 1: An police officer is directing traffic and signals for you to stop your car. This may be nitpicking, but your actions here are not voluntary. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Scenario 2: You are standing near a burning building and an officer orders you to move back. At least in Arizona, failure to comply with this order is disorderly conduct. A related question is whether the officer has the authority to physically move you away from the hazard as opposed to placing you under arrest (and then moving you). Some in the other thread seem to consider this "manhandling" and seem to think this is improper unless you are under arrest. I think cops probably have broad discretion in this situation, and I think it's reasonable for a cop to physically "escort" somebody to safety without arresting them.

Scenario 3: This is the one I thought was really interesting. At least in Arizona, "refusing to aid a peace officer is a criminal offense. If a cop is arresting somebody or acting to prevent the commission of "any offense" he can order you to assist him. I guess you could consider this a form of detention, but I'm honestly not sure how I feel about this one. I can see why this generally seems reasonable if there is a life-threatening situation, but "any offense" seems a little broad.

[Moseley]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57733

basically motorists are tricked into complying with outrageous things like giving blood samples. this is why you must learn to say no to police. this has always gone on among lower class people, but now it is being expanded into middle class and general society.

[/ QUOTE ]

An attempt of this in the 70's would never have happened, however, with the Patriot Act, and other laws (which Americans have taken laying down) that have encumbered our freedoms, for the sake of safety, it is the path we passive Americans have chosen.

We have allowed the search of our bags on the subways in N.Y. City, for the sake of safety, when a dog would do just fine. What will be next? Well, when you have the majority of the drivers voluntarily participating in this roadside bloodtest, it certainly doesn't look good.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 3: This is the one I thought was really interesting. At least in Arizona, "refusing to aid a peace officer is a criminal offense. If a cop is arresting somebody or acting to prevent the commission of "any offense" he can order you to assist him. I guess you could consider this a form of detention, but I'm honestly not sure how I feel about this one. I can see why this generally seems reasonable if there is a life-threatening situation, but "any offense" seems a little broad.

[/ QUOTE ]

wasn't this the seinfeld finale? lol

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
An attempt of this in the 70's would never have happened, however, with the Patriot Act, and other laws (which Americans have taken laying down) that have encumbered our freedoms, for the sake of safety, it is the path we passive Americans have chosen.

We have allowed the search of our bags on the subways in N.Y. City, for the sake of safety, when a dog would do just fine. What will be next? Well, when you have the majority of the drivers voluntarily participating in this roadside bloodtest, it certainly doesn't look good.



[/ QUOTE ]

I remember when protesters use to enter voting booths and smoke joints. Evidently nobody, absolutely, nobody is allowed to enter your voting booth. These folks would just sit and smoke weed for hours. The cops would show up, the media would show up and the tokers would just swallow their evidence upon leaving. Not a damn thing the authorities could do.

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When interacting with law enforcement it is always voluntary unless you are detained or arrested.

[/ QUOTE ]
Without disputing the general thrust of your post, I don't think this is completely accurate.

Scenario 1: An police officer is directing traffic and signals for you to stop your car. This may be nitpicking, but your actions here are not voluntary. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Scenario 2: You are standing near a burning building and an officer orders you to move back. At least in Arizona, failure to comply with this order is disorderly conduct. A related question is whether the officer has the authority to physically move you away from the hazard as opposed to placing you under arrest (and then moving you). Some in the other thread seem to consider this "manhandling" and seem to think this is improper unless you are under arrest. I think cops probably have broad discretion in this situation, and I think it's reasonable for a cop to physically "escort" somebody to safety without arresting them.

Scenario 3: This is the one I thought was really interesting. At least in Arizona, "refusing to aid a peace officer is a criminal offense. If a cop is arresting somebody or acting to prevent the commission of "any offense" he can order you to assist him. I guess you could consider this a form of detention, but I'm honestly not sure how I feel about this one. I can see why this generally seems reasonable if there is a life-threatening situation, but "any offense" seems a little broad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that in certain circumstances it is simply best to obey the officer without a clear understanding of the circumstances.

When I get puled over I don't say "am I under arrest" I put my keys on my dashboard, turn on the interior light, and put both hands on the stearing wheel in the 10 and 2 postion waiting for him to come to my window.

I will give my license and registration and take the ticket.

If he asks me to step out of the car I will do so and lock all the doors behind me. He is not getting in that car with my permission and I will make it very clear I never consent to searches.

If a cop stops me on the street I don't automatically say "am i under arrest" he might be looking for an armed robber in which case I might want to assist.

I'm talking about times when they are 'fishing' and trying to get you to talk yourself into trouble or talk yourself out of your rights.

I think anyone could beat a refusing to aid a police officer at a jury trial "I have asthma, I have been the victim of violent crime and was frozen and having flashbacks"

And the bldg one is interesteing. Remember, the cop does not initially know if he is talking to some punk or a senator's son. If he tells you to move it is reasonable to ask "how far away should I go officer?" is 100 yards sufficient"? or something like that (if he's being a dick about it).

And never physically resist anything an officer does regardless of if he is doing something illegal.

all too many people don't understand their rights or feel uncomfortable asserting them. I think that should be the NORM and the police should FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE SUGGESTING/IMPLYING that citizens relinquish their rights, or bully them with strong tones of voice and posture.

Never be a dick, but don't be intimidated by police. They will quickly change their demeanor when they hear you ask questions such as "what is my legal status at the moment officer?" "I'm not interested in discussing that officer, I am interested in leaving, am I free to go?" Then they know they are dealing with someone who knows their rights. There are plenty of bozo's who don't that they can screw over so trust me, they will want to let you walk ASAP unless there is something serious going on when you talk like that.

They shut up and run your name, then let you go (assuming you don't have a warrant). It's also interesting to begin taking notes of times and such when interacting with the police with a pen and paper. lol

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An attempt of this in the 70's would never have happened, however, with the Patriot Act, and other laws (which Americans have taken laying down) that have encumbered our freedoms, for the sake of safety, it is the path we passive Americans have chosen.

We have allowed the search of our bags on the subways in N.Y. City, for the sake of safety, when a dog would do just fine. What will be next? Well, when you have the majority of the drivers voluntarily participating in this roadside bloodtest, it certainly doesn't look good.



[/ QUOTE ]

I remember when protesters use to enter voting booths and smoke joints. Evidently nobody, absolutely, nobody is allowed to enter your voting booth. These folks would just sit and smoke weed for hours. The cops would show up, the media would show up and the tokers would just swallow their evidence upon leaving. Not a damn thing the authorities could do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's true thats awesome. I bet they would use a public disordling conduct law nowadays if someone tried that, or something like that. Endangering public safety (the ppl in the booths next to you).

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
all too many people don't understand their rights or feel uncomfortable asserting them. I think that should be the NORM and the police should FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE SUGGESTING/IMPLYING that citizens relinquish their rights, or bully them with strong tones of voice and posture.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol I've been to big apartment complex meetings (of a friend) where the police community outreach program is telling people that if they see something suspicious they should call them (thinking drugs here) and the police will show up and deal with it, funny thing is police came right out and "assured" the people that they don't need to get a warrant they were "very persuasive" and could "talk their way in" after they knocked on the door. said in that police way of being menacing and condescending and belittling with that evil grin/grimace.

It was really chilling, I turned to my friend (a dumb girl) and started commenting how this was like stasi behavior but she was too dumb. also not like we went to it, we were at the pool and the indoor center the meeting was being held and we walked past.

It was scary to be honest.