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View Poll Results: Weak hands with no draws
Bet 37 56.92%
Check 28 43.08%
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  #1  
Old 03-21-2007, 12:11 AM
Grisgra Grisgra is offline
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Default Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

I think it's probably pointless to post this question as at some point against opponents like this it's mostly about 'feel' but I think I might learn something.

HU, 30/60. Both players are laggy, both play reasonably well (arguable, admittedly), both players clearly think the other is full of [censored] and are certainly never folding ANY piece, no matter how scary the board.

Lagtard A has been 3-betting preflop a lot with maybe 50% of his hands, and hasn't been hurt by it, though Lagtard B is up about 10BB.

Example: About 20 hands ago, Lagtard B raised preflop, was 3-bet by Lagtard A, flop came 623. Check, call.

Turn was an Ace, putting two clubs out there, A bets, B raises, A calls with his K8o. River blank, check/call, Lagtard B's K-high is good.

Which leads us to this hand and the question of river bluff-raises.

Lagtard B raises, Lagtard A 3-bets, Lagtard B calls.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

B bets, A calls.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

B bets, A raises, B raises, A calls.

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

B bets.

Situation #1: A has a busted ISD. Is raising +EV?
Situation #2: A raises. B has a busted ISD. Is raising +EV?
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  #2  
Old 03-21-2007, 12:57 AM
DrewOnTilt DrewOnTilt is offline
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Default Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

I can't for the life of me imagine why on earth you would raise in either situation. Neither Lagtard that you described will fold anything that even remotely resembles a hand with showdown value. Why waste an extra bet? Just fold and move on to the next hand.
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Old 03-21-2007, 01:21 AM
Grisgra Grisgra is offline
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Default Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

[ QUOTE ]
I can't for the life of me imagine why on earth you would raise in either situation. Neither Lagtard that you described will fold anything that even remotely resembles a hand with showdown value. Why waste an extra bet? Just fold and move on to the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree, but the thing is that if A or B had marginal hands with showdown value there probably wouldn't be so much action -- either A has a great hand, or nothing, ditto with B. 11BB pot on the river, if B puts A on having zilch 20% of the time, and isn't afraid of a 3-bet bluff, raising makes sense, no?

Same goes vice-versa. A knows that B is capable of such goofiness -- remember that hand 20 hands ago -- and I can see a 3-bet bluff being reasonable here. ??
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Old 03-21-2007, 01:56 AM
Grisgra Grisgra is offline
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Default I got the action wrong in my original post.

In the final hand, I switched "A" and "B" postflop.

That is, preflop: B raises, A 3-bets, B calls, then:

On the A44 flop, A bets, B calls.
On the A445 turn, A bets, B raises, A 3-bets, B calls.
On the A445K river, A bets . . .

Question is does B raise, and if he does, does A 3-bet . . . ?
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:39 AM
cdlarmore cdlarmore is offline
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Default Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

EXACTLY!!!!
Also, we want to go to showdown, because its possible given these lagtards, that our "nothing" is even better than their nothing, i would rather see a bet wasted showingdown and calling rather than bluff RRing! Also, I think these guys are going to showdown all day long.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:38 AM
Grisgra Grisgra is offline
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Default Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

[ QUOTE ]
EXACTLY!!!!
Also, we want to go to showdown, because its possible given these lagtards, that our "nothing" is even better than their nothing, i would rather see a bet wasted showingdown and calling rather than bluff RRing! Also, I think these guys are going to showdown all day long.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting . . . let's say that the "junk" hand in question is Q2o. In that case, your argument is that there's very little point in reraising given the situation as he's never folding any piece, and you beat all other missed crap. On the other hand, if you had 62o or 92o or something similar, your junky hand doesn't even have high-card showdown value.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:42 PM
cdlarmore cdlarmore is offline
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Default Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

If I have 62 or 92, 1st off i am not getting involved, 2nd all i still cant bluff against this lagtard. Beacuase i may face a rr, and because hes never folding, he is a lagtard and a calling station, trying to Bluff raise a calling station is just ugly.
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:50 PM
WillyT WillyT is offline
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Default Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

"If I have 62 or 92, 1st off i am not getting involved"

This isn't about you though...just imagine you got there, so now what?

"2nd all i still cant bluff against this lagtard. Beacuase i may face a rr,"

This alone isn't a reason not to raise! To be fair you made that statement in conjunction with some others:

"and because hes never folding, he is a lagtard and a calling station,"

But I have no idea how and why you believe these things to be true. It's damned hard to be a calling station on the river. We're not trying to get an opponent to fold a piece of the board...

I suppose my point here is: don't project, just think. It's not useful in poker to be emotional or assuming. However it usefule to understand the emotions and assumings of one's opponents.

-WT
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:55 PM
WillyT WillyT is offline
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Default Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

Are we to view this as the last hand of a session?

With what range will B call a river raise and with what range will he 3 bet in your opinion? If we just fix some parameters the math isn't all that hard to work out.

-WT
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  #10  
Old 03-21-2007, 03:55 PM
Grisgra Grisgra is offline
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Default Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

[ QUOTE ]
Are we to view this as the last hand of a session?

With what range will B call a river raise and with what range will he 3 bet in your opinion? If we just fix some parameters the math isn't all that hard to work out.

-WT

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't view it as the last hand of the session, but in pure EV-for-the-hand terms, perhaps it's best.

I think that the lagtard in question calls a river raise with any piece, 3-bets his missed whatever about 20% of the time. Allowing for that rocking river bluff-cap [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Meaning that player B, in deciding whether to raise the river, I think needs to figure that A is on a bluff around 25% of the time. I don't know that that's unreasonable.

What I find interesting about HU aggro is that after the first raise or two, if someone has a showdownable hand, they're generally going to revert to calling down, and let the other person continue to bluff if they don't have it, and let them value-bet if they do. In other words, continuing to raise in that situation is generally -EV. But if they have air, well, continuing to go after the pot is +EV relative to calling (maybe not relative to folding, obviously).

Given the turn action, both players are either semibluffing like madmen or have at least top pair, if not a straight/trips/boat. And I don't know that the main aggressor in this hand, player A, 3-bets the turn here with something like top pair -- I would think he either has trips or better, or he's bluffing.

Does he really have trips+ 75%+ of the time? Sure, he could have 3-bet preflop with something like 54s, *absolutely*. But it's a coordinated board and he knows that player B likes to bluffraise.

Other thing I find interesting is that hand 20 hands ago, where B bluffraised the river, A called down with K-high, and won the pot. After that hand, one would think that A would think B is less likely to bluffraise the turn because he knows that A is calling down with ANYTHING showdownable.

So if B thinks A thinks B 'learned his lesson' about bluffraising on late streets, doesn't that make a river raise by B more reasonable?

I don't know.
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