TPNK from the BB

HerbieGRD · #1 11-17-2006, 10:24 AM

$10 FO - nearing the money but not on the bubble yet. I was really lost as this hand was happening and had no plan - can someone give me a better line than the one I took here?

Blinds: t100/t200
(Ante: t25)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t9448
UTG+1: t6646
MP1: t4430
MP2: t10738
MP3: t4214
CO: t1830
Button: t2680
SB: t6095
Hero: t4210

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t200 (pot was t525), 2 folds, MP3 calls t200 (pot was t725), 2 folds, SB calls t100 (pot was t925), Hero checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t1025, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t800, UTG+1 calls t800 (pot was t1825), MP3 folds, SB calls t800 (pot was t2625).

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t3425, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t1600, SB folds, Hero raises all-in t3185

FortunaMaximus · #2 11-17-2006, 11:26 AM

You don't like chips?

c/f > c/r > c/c flop, don't lead out TPNK OOP against two opponents with your stack size without planning to shove turn. Lawn chairs have more FE than you do in this spot.

Did you think, "Oh, what the hell am I doing?" as you c/r'd turn? If you didn't, quit poker.

Edit to add: Your hand's well disguised, it's all limpers PF, it's a drawy board, 98, Q9, sooted stuff, sets to consider, let them bet at it so you can go OTT if you think it's a good spot instead. Your bet's going to get called 'cause they might have those hands and wouldn't have the foresight to raise flop on you.

HerbieGRD · #3 11-17-2006, 11:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't like chips?

c/f > c/r > c/c flop, don't lead out TPNK OOP against two opponents with your stack size without planning to shove turn. Lawn chairs have more FE than you do in this spot.

Did you think, "Oh, what the hell am I doing?" as you c/r'd turn? If you didn't, quit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Admittedly when I was faced with the bet on the turn the thought "I really [carebeared] this hand up" was in the forefront of my mind

You really think c/f this flop is best line here?

FortunaMaximus · #4 11-17-2006, 11:36 AM

Depends. I really don't like raggy boards with PF limpers.

HerbieGRD · #5 11-17-2006, 11:48 AM

Well my thought process on the flop was to take a stab hoping they would all fold. I was pretty confident that if anyone had a better jack I would get raised and could fold. When I just get called twice I believe I have the best hand and the king while it looks ugly is actually a pretty good card for my hand because it is unlikely that anyone was floating me with a king unless it was something like K10 diamonds. I figured a turn push was likely to scare off hands like 55-99 that would float a flop bet there but would fold if I pushed. Once the bet came back to me I thought I was good often enough to felt it.....

registrar · #6 11-17-2006, 11:58 AM

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Depends. I really don't like raggy boards with PF limpers.

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You've got a thing about that. You've almost certainly got the best hand on the flop, but a) it's vulnerable and b) you're not going to get wedded to it so bet and evaluate if you get called/raised.

This part is fine. I'm a bit lost on the turn, tbh.

HerbieGRD · #7 11-17-2006, 12:02 PM

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This part is fine. I'm a bit lost on the turn, tbh.

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See my last post for my thoughts on the turn....

FortunaMaximus · #8 11-17-2006, 12:03 PM

If that's your thought process, look at how many scare cards hurt you on the turn, and think through the merits of a CRAI flop line. The pot would be smaller, you have more FE, you're ahead of even 12-out draws on probability.

You can get into trouble with TPNK aggression OOP, and frequently upon review, there are superior lines.

The reason I think a c/f is superior to other lines is dependent on opponents' action, and if there's significant interest by the other two on a J42 two-tone board, I'm pretty sure I can dump TPNK here.

If it gets checked to last to act and he makes a stab at the pot, you can do what you think is right, and CRAI or c/c and shove or CRAI good turns, etc.

A lot of multistreet play is taken out of MTT's, this is true, but you can get huge equity on turns with medium stacks. You don't frequently see river action that isn't for stacks so much, so the turn is the new river.

Make sense? I'm trying to explain the thought processes about playing through two streets instead of trying to take down a medium strength hand on flop that may be good. Mainly because opponents drawing, etc. equity falls drastically by turn, and you've frequently swung your small flop edge into a chunky turn edge against fair to decent opponents, and they will feel more committed, especially if they're the one to be the aggressor on the flop.

Edit: I know, registar, and that certainly isn't an issue with actual play. I tend to treat opponents sometimes as if they play perfectly.

HerbieGRD · #9 11-17-2006, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If that's your thought process, look at how many scare cards hurt you on the turn, and think through the merits of a CRAI flop line. The pot would be smaller, you have more FE, you're ahead of even 12-out draws on probability.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Mainly because opponents drawing, etc. equity falls drastically by turn, and you've frequently swung your small flop edge into a chunky turn edge against fair to decent opponents

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These two statements from your above post seem contradictory to me - by taking a CRAI line on the flop I am eliminating my ability to take advantage of a greater edge on the turn. I have enough chips left and a weak enough hand that I could c/f the turn if it is ugly (A or diamond comes to mind) but IMO a strong enough hand to felt on a safe turn. Plus by betting out I think I have more clearly defined which cards are scare cards and which are not - if the flop had checked through I would have had to c/f that turn because it is now likely that at least one of the limpers has me beat

FortunaMaximus · #10 11-17-2006, 12:43 PM

They seem contradictory because there are two opponents to act, and there are multiple decisions you can take on flop, and some might be more conducive to different types of opponents, and possible flop actions.

It's seemingly contradictory because it is one of those "it depends" situations and there are lines that work, lines that don't.

[ QUOTE ]
if the flop had checked through I would have had to c/f that turn because it is now likely that at least one of the limpers has me beat

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Note what I said about the flop aggressor feeling committed to a hand, and see where it applies to your action in this specific hand?

I don't mind a lead here necessarily, but you have to either keep up the aggression on turn or c/f. A c/r is just about the worst possible thing you can do here other than openmuck, given stack sizes. What were the pot odds Villain was getting to call your turn c/r?