Borgata $1K - Big Pair in BB with lots o' limpers

[Todd Terry]

Early on, 25/50, I have about 9K, starting 7K, my image would best be classified as certifiably insane at this point. Six limpers, I look down at QQ. Your action?

Two other relevant hands from the past:

1. Taj $1K event 2 years ago. 7 limpers, BB shoves for about 10X pot, everyone folds, he turns over AA. I thought to myself, "That's the dumbest play I've ever seen". Now I'm not so sure.

2. Bellagio Five Diamond $15K last year, first level, I'm down to 22K having bluffed off almost 1/3 of my chips in the first 40 minutes (which is a great feeling in a $15K event). UTG limps, I limp behind with 22, 4 other limpers, Gus Hansen makes it $750 in the BB, everyone calls. Flop comes 9 5 2, two of one suit on the board. Gus leads out for like 2200, I make it 7000, everyone folds around to Gus, who thinks for a while and moves all in. I call, Gus says, "I play so bad", and turns up AA. My hand holds.

The problem: making a huge raise UTG against many limpers when you're deep turns your hand face up and creates huge, huge implied odds for thinking opponents. It also creates the opportunity for a thinking player with position to make a move on you after the flop, putting you in a very tough spot. The solution?

[betgo]

I would raise to 300-500. With your image, you may get action and your hand is disguised. I don't see the problem.

[ZBTHorton]

I'd definitely raise big. Prob something like 4x+limpers. Maybe 5x. You need to chop the field down.

[betgo]

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I'd definitely raise big. Prob something like 4x+limpers. Maybe 5x. You need to chop the field down.

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In a $1K, a lot of people limp/fold. You really don't want to steal the pot. 4x + limpers is 500. You might be OK making it 400 depending on the table.

[ZBTHorton]

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I'd definitely raise big. Prob something like 4x+limpers. Maybe 5x. You need to chop the field down.

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In a $1K, a lot of people limp/fold. You really don't want to steal the pot. 4x + limpers is 500. You might be OK making it 400 depending on the table.

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Given his image, I'm much more worried about getting 5 callers, than stealing the blinds.

[NYWalker]

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Early on, 25/50, I have about 9K, starting 7K, my image would best be classified as certifiably insane at this point. Six limpers, I look down at QQ. Your action?



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OK. Let's be insane once and move all-in.

But do it this way, just announce "I'm all-in" then don't push the chips forward, instead hold your two cards down in "ready to muck" mode showing table you believe no one would call you.

If they all fold this time, do it next time with AA in similar spot.

[ZeeJustin]

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a huge raise UTG against many limpers when you're deep turns your hand face up

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If that's really the case, you should be making this play often with 72o. It's not.

Even if they do put you on a big hand, TT-AA + AK, they still won't know if you didn't flop a set unless the flop is really ragged.

[ QUOTE ]
huge implied odds for thinking opponents

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Only if you play like [censored] postflop. You are 140BB deep. You shouldn't be going broke here unimproved unless the circumstances are extremely unusual.

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It also creates the opportunity for a thinking player with position to make a move on you after the flop, putting you in a very tough spot.

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This is irrelevant, because very few players will actually attempt something like this in real life.

Raise it up, ldo.

[Todd Terry]

Results:

I raised to 500, got 1 caller, a guy who was on tilt because I just completed an open-ended straight against his top pair, top kicker and got him to pay a huge value bet on the river. The guy was terrible, I could read him like a book. Flop came 9 8 6 rainbow. I bet 750, he called. I thought he had either top pair or a draw, I was pretty sure he didn't flop a set. Turn was a 2, I bet 1800 (1/2 his stack), he thought for a while and folded.

Anyway, the specific hand in a $1K event was more of a backdrop for a larger discussion involving playing the hand with deeper stacks, against better players, with more at stake. Such as the hand with Gus, where halfway decent players like Chip Reese, Mike Matusow, and Shaniac were at the table. There, a big raise from the BB did turn Gus's hand face-up (I agree this isn't the case in a 1K event where you start with 7K, since people will make this move with a variety of hands to try to pick up the limps, which are a significant % of the stacks, and the players won't be nearly as good on average). I'm sure every one of the players who called Gus's raise said to himself, "Awesome, he has a big hand, he's going to have to make a big bet on the flop at the very least and he's out of position, I'm calling."

No matter how good you are postflop, playing OOP against many opponents is difficult. In the Gus hand, after the flop, I had a bunch of people behind me, so I felt I had to raise (I also thought my image was so crappy that I might generate more action by raising, which turned out to be correct) to avoid giving a free card to a flush draw. If I was last to act in the Gus hand after the flop and just called, what should he do on the turn? Check/fold? If so, this is super exploitable. If not, the implied odds are getting up there.

An amusing hand from today's Borgata $1500 event. Limper in front of me, I limped in MP with 54s, everyone including SB folded, BB checked. A 2 T flop, rag turn, rag river. Checked around on all 3 streets. I said I had 5 high, first limper turned over 7 high, BB turned over KK. Maybe he read my post before the tournament and didn't want to reveal the strength of his hand. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Todd Terry]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
huge implied odds for thinking opponents

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Only if you play like [censored] postflop. You are 140BB deep. You shouldn't be going broke here unimproved unless the circumstances are extremely unusual.


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Depth relative to the blinds becomes less relevant, and depth relative to the pot, i.e. the stack/pot ratio (SPR) as defined by PNLH, becomes more relevant.

Assuming an average stack of 7K:

Callers Pot SPR
1 800 5.38
2 1300 3.88
3 2300 3.04
4 2800 2.5
5 3300 2.12
6 3800 1.84

If we get a lot of callers and then a very favorable flop like 9 4 2 rainbow, I think we have to lead with a significant chunk of our stack, close to 1/2 pot at least.

What actually happened was I got 1 caller from a stack of 4350 after he called, which gives an SPR of 3.34. If a good player who we have difficulty reading raises or jams over our flop lead on the 9 8 6 rainbow flop, I think we are put in a very tough spot with QQ. We're not in a great spot if a good player flat calls there either.