river raise??? I rivered two pair.

[JooWish622]

Villain is unknown. Effective stacks 800. 3 handed. 5-10.

Hero raises to 35 with A7o on the button. SB calls. BB folds.

Flop: J74, rainbow. Villain checks, Hero bets 50. Villain calls.
TUrn: 2 putting a 2 flush on board. Check/Check
River: A, flush didn't get there. Villain bets 150. Hero??

ALl in? Or call? and why?

[Jay Riall]

370, fold to shove.

[praios]

[ QUOTE ]
370, fold to shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds good

[cianosheehan]

There is value there but you have to fold to a raise

[Jay.]

Call. Any value you may be able to milk with a small raise is blown away by the possibility of him shoving A7s and you losing the whole pot plus your raise.

[Jay Riall]

Jay - I realise I'm an idiot so my opinion doesn't count but there are only 4 combos of A7, and a lot of hands that call a small raise. Just seems to me that if you don't want to raise it should be because you don't think you get payed by worse enough not because you are scared that he a) has the same hand and b)pushes and folds you off a chop. This is assuming many people actually 3bet push A7 on the river which I belive they do not.

[Jay.]

heh i was only joking about the idiot thing. few things.

- there could be zero combinations of A7s, so what i said might not apply.

- i don't think there are a lot of hands that call a small raise, most because i think a lead here is usually a very unique range and on top of that bad players usually read this as AK and play accordlingly often.

- i think if you make it a min raise or min plus some amount to make it not look like a min raise then A7 does shove here. he only has AJ to worry about and you're hand to unknowns looks like AK.

- 'just seems to me if you don't want to raise it should be because you don't think you get paid by worse often enough'

this isn't always true and applies well here. if for examples stake w/o A7s being a possibility here you think it's 55/45 he calls with worse you win/he shoves and you fold, then that's fine and you raise and make money.

now put A7s back and say it's something like 45/40/15 he calls you win/he has better and shoves/same hand and shoves more often than not, you now have a situation in which after you raise you get called by a worse hand more often than you get shoved on by a better hand but you shouldn't do it because of the A7 is added his win range increasing the frequency of a shove that you can't call.

the only reason i meantioned any of this is because i think a7 could be a very large part of his range here. you could be raising against the same hand only to get shoved off the same hand. which as you can see sucks. or some hand range of 44 77 AK-discounted/whatever dumb hand-discounted and A7 may apply and you're slightly ahead of that but the A7s shove added in the sets range, [censored] you.

lastly, it doesn't apply here but at higher stakes it wont just be about a a7 shove. it could be a 45 flop float, that leads the river to fold out KQ and other high card hands, gets raised the min and thinks fu A7/weak raise, ALL IN BABY.

heh, why the hate for leeds btw?

[Jay Riall]

Good points Jay. I'm not too sure since this spot doesn't come up too often but I see people bet/call this river with hands worse than A7 plenty - good Jx hands, floated Ax, A2, A4. A7 is definitely the pivotal hand for me, any better obv raise, any worse call or fold.

I see your point that if we make a small raise A7 may shove more often, but I don't really think it gets shoved more than it gets called. Then again I play fairly passive Party 1/2 and 2/4 games, so it may be different in a more aggressive environment.

Also, no particular hate for Leeds, never been there, but Leeds United football players, Emmerdale and that tw*t Science off Big Brother from a few year back has kinda tarnished Leeds image in my mind. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]