Pushing Equity Edges In PLO8

[Omaha8sPoker]

I got into a debate at the table a few weeks back with a guy at the tables and this debate was brought to my eyes the way I played a hand last nite and I was just curious to find the general consensus of the community...

We were debating the merits of pushing equity edges in PLO8...We ran one of the hands he just played and he had just barely a 51:49 equity advantage on the flop when the money went in...He said he would do this all day and all night because he had the bankroll to do it...I argued that it wasn't a great play to do what he did because while he was ahead in that particular hand, his opponents range could have been wider and he could have actually been a dog in the hand...

At that moment I didn't think it was a great idea to push those kinda edges, then I really thought to myself, "you gotta be outta your mind NOT to push those edges if you have the proper bankroll for the game..."...And then I realized that is the way I play the game as well, pushing the equity edges...

Last nite I came up against my nemesis where I limp-called his raise with A553, sooted to the A...Flop came J24, rainbow (no backdoor flush possible)...He bet about pot, I repopped him pot and he beat me into the pot all-in with AJ28...At the time I had about $150, he had $90...This was IMO a beyond atrocious play on his part because he is gonna be a dog to 99% of the hands I am doing that with and A8 isn't exactly the greatest low on the planet...

Now is that a play that most of you would make? Or is this just a long-term losing play? Not really looking at this hand specifically because I will put my entire net worth on the constant running of these hands heads up on that flop and will come out with a nice tidy profit...I'm looking at a more general view, is a check-raise the proper play here, knowing that his range of hands we are most likely ahead of...Also is a check raise here the proper play if we are playing deep (200+ BBs each)?

[bbartlog]

I don't see anything *wrong* with pushing a 51:49 equity edge, but I also think that the big profits in PLO8 come from catastrophic mistakes made by your opponents - not from winning weighted coinflips.
In the case of the AJ28 vs A355 hand, I think your opponent would be better off if he called your raise rather than 3-betting; assuming he gives you credit for a low wrap, he can then fold if an A/3/5 comes on the turn, jam on a high card, and call on any other low card. Or something like that. Pretty sure that gives him better expectation than jamming the flop.

[Omaha8sPoker]

BBart I totally agree...He played this hand like [censored] IMO because I think he was steaming from me drawing out and scooping him at another table about 15 minutes earlier...I personally wouldn't even push top set here because you know that you are gonna be a dog on the flop to a wrap...And if I 3-bet here I would certainly not do it "instantly"...

I agree with you about the big money being made from big mistakes...I've only been at this cash game stuff in PLO8 for about 15 months now, so as a former NLHE SNG donk pushing a 51:49 edge might not be preferable depending on the stage of the tourney...But reading some stuff here and in NL forums, in cash games if you are adequately rolled for a game, you should be willing to push edges that are greater than 50.x%, where the 'x' would be what number you would have to win to at least beat the rake...It's high variance, but if you run those trials to infinity you'll come out a winner...But you also have to take into consideration your opponents hand ranges when pushing...While you might be an x:x favorite on THAT PARTICULAR hand, you might be a dog versus your opponents range...

[You're No Daisy]

In this hand you have a 54:46 edge if my calculations are correct. IMO, this is a terrible play by your nemesis. In fact, I wouldn't call him your nemesis at all. If he's going to make erratic plays like that just because he's got the bankroll, then you might just end up calling him your ATM.

As far as playing the hand, I would check call the flop and then get it all in on the turn if you hit an 8, 7, or 6 because you're pretty much free rolling him at that point. If a 5 hits, he's pretty much praying for one of the other two Jacks and dueces.

AC

[Omaha8sPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
In this hand you have a 54:46 edge if my calculations are correct. IMO, this is a terrible play by your nemesis. In fact, I wouldn't call him your nemesis at all. If he's going to make erratic plays like that just because he's got the bankroll, then you might just end up calling him your ATM.
As far as playing the hand, I would check call the flop and then get it all in on the turn if you hit an 8, 7, or 6 because you're pretty much free rolling him at that point. If a 5 hits, he's pretty much praying for one of the other two Jacks and dueces.

AC

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL, yeah but he always seems to sneak out of the times when I have him 55-60% on the flop...It's uncanny...But anywho, that's not the issue here...Obviously those cards I jam the turn with, BUT what happens when the 4 comes out on the turn like it did? Can you really shut it down here with this hand? Isn't this the type of hand we want to see all 5 cards with?? I guess calling is a way to mix up your play, which is fine...But I don't know if I get another dime outta the villan if a 3/5 comes on the turn...Only way I get him is if an 8/7 comes giving me lock low and I jam it and I hit my straight on the river...

[You're No Daisy]

If a 4 comes on the turn, you have to shut it down. Even though villain sucks at poker, you should wait for a better spot. He'll run good for a short while, but it will eventually catch up to him.

AC

[rando]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as playing the hand, I would check call the flop and then get it all in on the turn if you hit an 8, 7, or 6 because you're pretty much free rolling him at that point. If a 5 hits, he's pretty much praying for one of the other two Jacks and deuces.

[/ QUOTE ]

ITA with this approach (sure you are just shocked to hear me telling you to wait til the turn O8, LOL). Further, if you're afraid you can't get any more out of him, and he knows he is your nemesis, maybe if a low falls on the turn you can milk him with a small bet made to look like an asking bet, 1/3 pot or so (??) and hopefully he thinks you are "oh no here goes the nemesis again" block-betting. This guy sounds like he might fall for that lure. get away from thinking he is your nemesis and realize he is just another mark whom you will hit squarely soon. The nemesis idea clearly alters your play against him, which almost has to be suboptimal play, unless you have a clear strategy with which to deceive him through this alternate (as opposed to altered) strategy. To put the equity equation in another light, perhaps it is better to call then blast a good turn card for a small profit than to risk it all on the flop - if you run the sims on these three scenarios (get it in now, push good turn, fold bad turn) you might find the results suggest a different tack - not sure if that is true but it's worth investigating.

[BradleyT]

Your 51:49 buddy is losing money unless the the rake is less than 2% of the final pot size - or the blinds are dead money in the pot.



$150 pots and $3 rake:
100 hands played
$7500 invested
51 * $147 (pot minus rake) = $7497 won
$3 Net loss

If this wasn't a sb vs. bb battle every single time then the blinds would be enough to make this a marginal winning situation of a few pennies per hand.

[Omaha8sPoker]

In this instance it wasn't a blind battle...And yeah that's why I said you had to have an edge of 50.x, with the "x" being whatever it takes to beat the rake...