PLO8 - The Wrap, A Long Term Loser?

[Omaha8sPoker]

Just curious how you guys played the huge wrap...I got into a situation last nite where I called a raise on the button from the cutoff with:

5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

There were 3 people to see the flop, the other caller had about $18 left in front of him and I had the raiser covered ($220 to $110)...

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

The short stack checks and the initial raiser bets pot...Now I know the initial raiser and have played with him before, he knows my game and I know his...We have a mutual respect for each other's games and I know him to be a very qualified player who can laydown a hand...He also doesn't get out of line very often when I'm in the pot with him and have position...

With that being said, what do you do here? I thought he was trying to push AJ hard...

WHAT DID I DO...I pushed hard with my wrap, the short stacked called and before calling the initial raiser says, "I'd much rather have your hand" and puts me all in...I of course call and he shows me AAxx and fills up on the turn and I brick out on the river and lose a huge pot...

I tried this almost exact same move later and got the same results...Am I just pushing way too hard with this kinda hand or is this justified??

I have the bankroll to handle any short term swings in negative variance so I really don't mind making this kinda play if it is long run +EV...The way I see this kinda hand is that I'm not gonna get paid off here the times I do hit my hand because if the 2, 3, 5 comes on the turn and I bet most like (especially this raiser) will shut it down when I bet, so getting the money in on the turn is the best play...While I would rather outplay my opponents instead of getting into a shovefest, BUT I think this kinda hand loses a lot of its value in letting an opponent get away from their potential marginal holdings cheaply...

Any discussion would be appreciated...

[niss]

In my opinion, in general, I don't see how you don't push the hand. 2-3-4-5 is an equity favorite on that flop over a hand like A-A-K-Q. The only hand you fear is something like A-2-3-X. You are a favorite over A-2-4-X.

On occasion, since you have position, perhaps a call rather than a push might be OK as well, depending upon the size of the bet, stack size, and whether you believe the villain will throw all his money in even if you hit.

Even as an equity favorite though you are going to lose something like 45% of the time.

[davebreal]

[ QUOTE ]
Even as an equity favorite though you are going to lose something like 45% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

well said. this is a very simple twodimes.net question, and there is no debate to be had about it.

pushing the flop enables you to get to the river, and in this case you are going to want to see all 5 community cards in case the turn bricks.

[prodonkey]

I shove that all day.. but all wheel wraps aren't the same. A23 on a 45J board for instance, many of the times you hit here you don't get the whole pot.

[Omaha8sPoker]

Thanks guys, just checking for my own sanity...Like I've said a million times here, I tend to sometimes overpush draws...As I was typing I did twodimes it...55:45 in my favor over the "naked" set of Aces as the case may be...I ran this sim 2 nights ago on a similar (not the same situation) where it was a 51:49 favorite...In a cash game I guess you do have to push those equity edges if you are playing within your bankroll...

This situation probably is even more favorable than 55:45 as the "villian" in this situation said he possibly would have laid down AJ in this situation so we actually get a little fold equity into the equation too...

Sorry for the simplistic question...

[Omaha8sPoker]

Fair point Dave about wanting to see all 5 and I for the most part agree with that statement...But what about just a flat call on the flop? If the turn comes like it did we can muck easily...Or does flat calling eliminate the "strengths" of the baby wheel wrap (that I mentioned in my initial post), such as not getting paid off when we hit it?

AFTERTHOUGHT: That probably isn't up for debate as I guess it just comes down to EV on the flop...We run this sim a million times we end up coming out positively...

[howzit]

it depends. if villain will call off his money if a wheel card comes off, then you can wait. it'll reduce variance while not reducing your equity.

if villain won't pay you off even with top set, go ahead and jam and take your skalnsky bucks.

[Omaha8sPoker]

This villian, no way in bloody hell he would ever call off another red cent if a wheel card comes off...He's probably one of the handful of PLO8 players at the $100 level who actually have a clue (at least the ones I play against)...Actually I think he might even check-fold a turn card of 8, 7, 6 because as the pot stood there was about $80 in the pot after the flop and he would have had to commit the rest of his stack to see the river because I would raise him all-in or bet pot if checked to...I don't know if he woulda been able to put me on exactly 2345 if I just called the flop, but as soon as I raised him he knew where I was at (obviously it was easier because he had the set of Aces)...