Big pair, big pot

vmacosta · #1 07-03-2007, 04:48 PM

PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP calls, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG caps, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)

UTG bets, MP raises, me??

nickg1532 · #2 07-03-2007, 04:49 PM

i raise the flop

jba · #3 07-03-2007, 04:51 PM

i would raise/cap the flop. as played I think you should 3bet turn.

the thing is you should be welcoming action on the flop but not necessarily the turn. his kings aren't looking too hot when you protected pot raise him on the turn but they look great on the flop (you can have a jack or just spades) so you're going to be able to cap here a ton. yes you lose the middle guy a lot when he 3bets but I think you gain so much by capping it is worth it (also, haven't done the math but the pot is huge so 5 outers folding esp with the last spade is probably good for you).

mvoss · #4 07-03-2007, 04:55 PM

I go nuts on the flop. Turn is tough, but I 3-bet.

vmacosta · #5 07-03-2007, 05:08 PM

jeez, you guys think this is bad u should see how the rest of the hand turned out!

NinaWilliams · #6 07-03-2007, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I go nuts on the flop. Turn is tough, but I 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

what he said. Not raising this flop is a big error IMO with someone in between.

Oink · #7 07-04-2007, 05:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising this flop is a big error IMO with someone in between.

[/ QUOTE ]

milesdyson · #8 07-04-2007, 05:37 AM

i want to chime in and say i don't think it makes a big difference whether you raise the flop or turn here. also, if the hand played out like this:

UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls.

UTG bets, MP calls, Hero raises, UTG cals, MP calls.

there would be not be such strong comments about the flop play.

Oink · #9 07-04-2007, 06:10 AM

Thank you for the credit Miles. But even if the action went as in your example I would still hate the flop call. Since you think otherwise I could be wrong but I want the money in while there is players in the pot.

vmacosta · #10 07-04-2007, 07:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP calls, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG caps, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)

UTG bets, MP raises, me??

[/ QUOTE ]

All, I made a huge mistake not providing player reads here.

UTG is Donald--he is a true lag, particularly pf. I've seen him do stuff like this with T8s.

MP is a tag but perhaps on the passive side.

Anyway, I tend to agree with the raise the flop camp, but I don't feel very strongly either way. For some reason, in this case, I wanted to "teach these guys a lesson" or whatever and I was more than 90% sure Donald would lead any turn cuz that's what guys like him do.

But can we please put the flop aside and tell me what to do on the turn/river?