Canadian (Socialized) Health Care

[mosdef]

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The same thing is happening in Canada. We get conflicting stories, where one person gets an operation withing a few hours because there are 4729847293847 doctors waiting at his beck and call, while someone else is put on a 6-month waiting list for a life-saving procedure. I'm sure the later person would love to bid up the price in order to attract a surgeon to his bedside. Too bad he can't.

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Not directly, no. The biggest problem with allocation of resources is:

- Doctors are rich as hell
- Rich as hell people don't want to live in Moose Skull Fracture, North Manitoba, they want to live in Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver
- People in Moose Skull Fracture, North Manitoba are conditioned to believe they deserve a doctor, and the government takes their money and promises them a doctor

Now, the people in MSF can't offer to pay higher service rates to the doctors to get them to come. In practice, however, some people in these communities band together and offer houses + cash bonuses + other perquisites to the get the doctors to sign a contract committing to the community for a few years. So even though wages are mandated, market forces allow for alternative compensations to rise with demand.

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The same thing is happening in Canada. We get conflicting stories, where one person gets an operation withing a few hours because there are 4729847293847 doctors waiting at his beck and call, while someone else is put on a 6-month waiting list for a life-saving procedure. I'm sure the later person would love to bid up the price in order to attract a surgeon to his bedside. Too bad he can't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not directly, no. The biggest problem with allocation of resources is:

- Doctors are rich as hell
- Rich as hell people don't want to live in Moose Skull Fracture, North Manitoba, they want to live in Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver
- People in Moose Skull Fracture, North Manitoba are conditioned to believe they deserve a doctor, and the government takes their money and promises them a doctor

Now, the people in MSF can't offer to pay higher service rates to the doctors to get them to come. In practice, however, some people in these communities band together and offer houses + cash bonuses + other perquisites to the get the doctors to sign a contract committing to the community for a few years. So even though wages are mandated, market forces allow for alternative compensations to rise with demand.

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[Ray Zee]

glad it worked for you. but you had an emergency and govt. care gets you in quickly for that. suppose you had a need for something tha wasnt. you would still be waiting. lots of b.c. people come down to our great doctors in montana to pay for their own care here as they can get it.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
glad it worked for you. but you had an emergency and govt. care gets you in quickly for that. suppose you had a need for something tha wasnt. you would still be waiting. lots of b.c. people come down to our great doctors in montana to pay for their own care here as they can get it.

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There are some other cases where an apparent non-emergency might be an emergency. My father last year had a small growth in his face. Being appearance-conscious and quite concerned, he got it checked out immediately. It turned out to be cancer. The next week he had it biopsied, and by that point the cancer had spread to cover a roughly 3"x2" portion of his face. The doctor told him that had it been another week or two, it would have spread to his lymph nodes, and he'd be dying right now. During that instance, I was pretty happy that we lived in the country with the fastest medical response time in the world.

[Copernicus]

I'm glad it worked out well.

It also points out the erroneous conclusions that can be drawn from simplistic "cost of health care" statistics. Did the initial visit cost more than it might in other countries (even taking into account the taxes paid)...probably. Did the removal cost more?....probably.

Are the savings resulting from the quick diagnosis and avoidance of further metastisis captured in "cost of health care statistics"? No. What is captured is the cost differential in terminal care for those that arent caught early.

Do non-invasive surgeries cost more than their traditional counterparts because of the technology? Yes, and that "increases the cost of healthcare". Are the earnings/productivity of returning to work 2 weeks to 2 months earlier reflected as offsets ot the cost of healthcare? Not in any publicly available studies that I know of.

Net/net the cost of care comparisons are woefully inaccurate.

[Zygote]

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the whole Tommy Douglas argument that poor people should not be without care and that should not feel the disgrace of charity

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Do you have a source for this? I have never heard anyone argue for universal health care on the grounds that it protects the poor from the disgrace of asking for help. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that filling out a government application for something is more dignified then asking United Way (for example).

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Why does the government reject a two-tier system?

My only source is the tommy douglas movie i saw on cbc. He made the point about charity at some point i can't remember, and others ive argued with have brought this up to defend the monopoly system.

[mosdef]

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Why does the government reject a two-tier system?

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- They need lots of doctors in their system for their system to work
- Parallel privatization would take doctors away from the public plan
- They are already short on doctors because the CMA limits the number of doctors trained

[evank15]

It's really quite sad how most younger Canadians have never heard of Tommy Douglas. He is never mentioned in our school system here, I had never heard of him growing up. And yet he was voted the greatest Canadian to have ever lived. And he most definitely is. Tommy Douglas is a big part of why this country is as great as it is. He was responsible not only for socialized health care, but for a left turn in politics in general. His NDP is still fighting the leftist fight today, stronger than ever, the voice of the nation's proletariat for almost half a century.

I am not an NDP supporter (card carrying Liberal), but I believe a strong NDP presence is vital for the success of this country. And I am also proud to say I live in an NDP riding, which ironically is one of the most affluent ridings in the country. I'd much rather my riding go to the leftist conscious than the neo-con "god bless canada/nelson mandela is a terrorist" retards.

[mosdef]

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It's really quite sad how most younger Canadians have never heard of Tommy Douglas.

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It's only "sad" if you presuppose that socialized health care was a good thing, and that he isn't getting the recognition he "deserves" (although when you win a popular vote as greatest Canadian ever I find it hard to classify you as "underrated").

In any event, while I am not one of the fierce opponents of Canadian health care as is, I think it's sad that 90%+ of Canadians base their arguments on:

- A supposition that socialized health care is a great thing and that any alternative is a terrible thing
- A supposition that anyone who proposes an alternative wants poor people to die in the street

Worshipping at the altar of socialized health care is far more dangerous than forgetting who started it.

[FooSH]

[ QUOTE ]
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Why does the government reject a two-tier system?

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- They need lots of doctors in their system for their system to work
- Parallel privatization would take doctors away from the public plan
- They are already short on doctors because the CMA limits the number of doctors trained

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But the number of patients remain constant, any doctors taken away from the public service will also take patients with them.

I know nothing of the CMA and its limits, but there are a lot of qualified doctors coming from developing nations. Even public sector pay will look like a goldmine to them.