Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > Tournament Poker > Tournament Circuit/WSOP

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-16-2007, 11:10 PM
jsmith5 jsmith5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 202
Default Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

I posted this on my blog on PokerWire, and I think it's a very important consideration for players.
----------------------------------------------------------

The announcement that the World Series of Poker would begin each tournament with double the starting stack of last year’s events was initially recognized as a move on their part to accommodate the players’ request for more play. However, the move was tempered by adjustments to the blind levels.

On his way to a Stud 8-or-better event, Daniel Negreanu stated, “There’s absolutely no difference with the double stacks because of the blind structure. People just don’t realize it.”

Daniel is not alone in his opinion; I posted a conversation between Mike Matusow and Greg Mueller a few days ago. FBT summarized their conversation by stating, "It's so annoying. You want to make a play---it's the World Series. They used to play for a bracelet until 6 AM because there was play. Now they just want you out of here. There's more play at the beginning, but who wants to play for four hours then get busted?"

I hesitate to say I agree with anything that comes out of “The Mouth,” but the outspoken pros are right—the new structure offers more play in the first few levels but turns the late stages into a shove-fest. Players have the freedom to splash around a bit more in the early going, but have little room to maneuver when the chips matter the most.

The structure really begins to speed up when players return for Day 2. By the time they are down to four tables a standard raise usually pot-commits the average stack. If you want to see where the greatest discrepancies lie, look no farther than any final table.

After writing about Mike Binger’s quick start to this year’s WSOP, I began following his play through the final sixty players of the $5,000 No-Limit Holdem event. By the end of the night, Mike had made the final table (albeit as the short stack) along with several other good players.

The next day I found a seat outside the media center at the Rio to watch the one-hour delayed final table on the big-screen TV. I was anticipating a final table that would demonstrate some great end game play.

If I were a betting man, I would’ve placed money on Nick Schulman to win. It’s a good thing I’m not, because Nick made an appearance by the TV while he was still on it. Confused? So was I, because Nick had a ton of chips on the big screen, and it was only a one hour delay. As it turns out, play was an all-in fest from the time the cards were in the air.

Last year’s $5,000 event had a field of 622 and a star-studded final table (Phil Hellmuth, Marcel Luske, and Eugene Todd, bro to name a few). Play began just after 2:00 PM and lasted until just after midnight. Take out the dinner break and they played for 8.5 hours.

As a spectator and poker fan, I was horrified by the rapidity of eliminations at this year’s final table. After whittling down the field of 640, it only took James Mackey 48 hands to claim his bracelet. They played for about 2.5 hours. In no way do I want to take away from the bracelet-winning efforts of “mig.com”, but the disparity in times must be pointed out.

Second place finisher Stuart Fox played exactly one hand before he was heads-up with Mackey. One hand. He then folded the next three before he was all-in and lost. Two hands equals second place.

When Jon Friedberg captured the $1,000 No Limit Holdem bracelet in the 2006 WSOP, it took him 122 hands. With double the starting stack, this year’s first $1,500 No-Limit event took less than half that many hands to finish—only 59. Brandon Cantu’s victory in event #2 last year lasted nearly 10 hours; Ciarin O'Leary’s took less than 5.

WSOP officials have shown a bit more willingness to make changes on the fly this year, and I hope they can see a problem when players begin describing the end of tournaments as a “crap-shoot.” I’m not sure what changes the Nevada Gaming Commission allow to structures once they have been posted, but something needs to be done about the late stages of these events.

An immediate solution would be rolling back the blinds once players reach the final table. Officials could make an easy decision based on X# of big blinds for the average chip stack (50 would be ideal; 35 seems more likely). Yes, events would last several hours longer, putting that much more of a strain on tournament staff and the media…but we’re not the ones playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

In the words of the not-always-articulate-but-usually-insightful Mike Matusow, “We can fix it.”
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-16-2007, 11:32 PM
buckslayer80 buckslayer80 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Waiting for GOW3
Posts: 1,010
Default Re: Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

Nice post. I noticed many of the same things. It just shows that all Harrah's wants to do is "get em in, and get em out." I'm still baffled that there isn't a standard structure in place for FTs like you mentioned in your last paragraph. Especially with tournaments being the most popular form of poker.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-16-2007, 11:47 PM
underoath73 underoath73 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 65
Default Re: Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

advantage for online players, not much post flop play
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-16-2007, 11:58 PM
Dynasty Dynasty is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 16,088
Default Re: Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

Citing that final tables are finishing faster isn't sufficient evidence for your claim that the strucutre of the tournament is poor.

Somebody needs to look up and post the stack sizes and blind structure of two similar tournament final tables from 2006 and 2007 to provide the proper evidence.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-17-2007, 12:05 AM
underoath73 underoath73 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 65
Default Re: Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

in 2005 phil ivey and jeff lisandro played heads up for 8 hrs of a circuit event, i guess thats not technically at the wsop
we will never have a 8 hour heads up match ever again
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-17-2007, 12:06 AM
buckslayer80 buckslayer80 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Waiting for GOW3
Posts: 1,010
Default Re: Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

[ QUOTE ]
Citing that final tables are finishing faster isn't sufficient evidence for your claim that the strucutre of the tournament is poor.

Somebody needs to look up and post the stack sizes and blind structure of two similar tournament final tables from 2006 and 2007 to provide the proper evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC the difference was larger stack sizes, but larger jumps in the middle levels which in effect pretty much evened things out. But if this trend continues it may have made them a lot worse at the FT.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-17-2007, 12:41 AM
jsmith5 jsmith5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 202
Default Re: Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

The levels that have been removed for holdem events are: 25-25, 2.5k-5k, 12k-24k, and 25k-50k.

After two and a half hours, the final blind level was 30k-60k-5k for Mackey. After ten hours, Cabinillas defeated Hellmuth with blinds at 25k-50k. Even though the average stack for the final 9 may be doubled, the missing levels have clearly impacted late stage play. While it's possible that some players may be playing faster, almost every no-limit holdem final table has finished in half of the time. I find it hard to imagine that the difference lies in the players and not the structure.

I recognize that these figures are not deeply rooted in math but unfortunately that's about all my pea-sized brain can handle. I would love to see someone crunch the numbers on all the stacks/blinds/etc from each table. I'll post your results on pokerwire.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-17-2007, 02:16 AM
Allen C Allen C is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 21
Default Re: Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

Last year I'm pretty sure they increased the time for each level at the final table. Can someone confirm/deny?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-17-2007, 02:36 AM
MikeRice MikeRice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 372
Default Re: Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

Yeah I think all the FT's had 90 minute levels.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-17-2007, 02:51 AM
shaniac shaniac is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,386
Default Re: Final tables taking 1/2 as long at 2007 WSOP

[ QUOTE ]
The levels that have been removed for holdem events are: 25-25, 2.5k-5k, 12k-24k, and 25k-50k.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, these levels have been missed. It's absurd, really, to eliminate them, and it's noticeable how crapshoot-y the late stages of these tournaments are. I couldn't frickin' believe how quickly the 5K final table was finished. Also, didn't they have different structures for 5K events and 1500 events in 2006?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.