The Biology of Beauty

[vhawk01]

There are short-term fads, sort of a runaway phenomenon, that can be culturally or regionally based, but the overall human aesthetic is fairly universal.

But of course this is really just a great example of the "culture fallacy" which states that everything that is bad or stupid or wicked about humanity is a product of our evil culture. Don't you know, culture makes us all shallow, culture gives little girls eating disorders, if it werent for culture we would all be 100% peaceful, living in tune with mother nature and alternating between giving each other backrubs and tantric sex. TV is a euphemism for culture.

[madnak]

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You're definitely right, and it's sort of amazing that people in a college class (people who are theoretically interested in learning) can be such bad thinkers. But of course they yell and moan and claim strong opinions anyways. You didn't go into much detail, but I feel like I have a good hunch into what types of arguments and attitudes they held.

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I agree with this.

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It seems like you basically have to have a poor intuitive sense for how existence works if you don't think attraction evolves biologically based on very real criteria. Cultural stuff might account for some very superficial differences, but you could raise me anywhere and as long as I'm a human being dog [censored] still smells like dog [censored], and palm trees blowing gently on a calm autumn sunset is still beautiful. And Lindsay Lohan is still really hot even if she's nuts.

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This is [censored]. Lindsay Lohan is relatively unattractive by most standards. As fury mentioned, fat chicks are normally considered hotter than skinny chicks. Personally, I can't imagine this being the case (and I doubt most of us in the modern world can), so it's clear that culture does have a significant impact.

[vhawk01]

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You're definitely right, and it's sort of amazing that people in a college class (people who are theoretically interested in learning) can be such bad thinkers. But of course they yell and moan and claim strong opinions anyways. You didn't go into much detail, but I feel like I have a good hunch into what types of arguments and attitudes they held.

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I agree with this.

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It seems like you basically have to have a poor intuitive sense for how existence works if you don't think attraction evolves biologically based on very real criteria. Cultural stuff might account for some very superficial differences, but you could raise me anywhere and as long as I'm a human being dog [censored] still smells like dog [censored], and palm trees blowing gently on a calm autumn sunset is still beautiful. And Lindsay Lohan is still really hot even if she's nuts.

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This is [censored]. Lindsay Lohan is relatively unattractive by most standards. As fury mentioned, fat chicks are normally considered hotter than skinny chicks. Personally, I can't imagine this being the case (and I doubt most of us in the modern world can), so it's clear that culture does have a significant impact.

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I think its a bit unfair to claim that we, as a society, find girls like Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan to be the apex of beauty. They are POPULAR, they are what we like to read about, but that doesn't mean that they represent the "average American's dream girl." There is a slight difference between the types of girls we glamorize and idolize and the types of girls/women we as a society find to be beautiful.

Obviously there is some cultural variation in this, and as is common in sexual selection, there is a seeming "positive feedback" runaway effect. But I think you'd find that even Rubenesque beauties had very close to "population average" nose widths, "population average" lips, and so on. Symmetry and averageness are beautiful. Outward signs of health are beautiful.

Interestingly, this reminds me of the theory in The Red Queen about why we prefer blondes. Blond hair shows wear and age and damage a lot easier and earlier than dark hair, so healthy blond hair is a much more reliable indicator of youth and health than similarly healthy-looking brown hair. Not sure what that has to do with anything (I prefer brunettes anyway) but I remember thinking that was interesting when I read it.

[scorcher863]

Most black ppl that i have known prefer FULL figured women. (See BET uncut at 4am.) Is this evidence of a cultural difference in beauty? I haven't the slightest clue. lol

[madnak]

Oh, for sure. Some traits are beautiful due to our biology. But some traits are beautiful due to our socialization.

[Philo]

http://www.symonics.com/sci_balancing.html

[ALawPoker]

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this is wrong, imo. Yes, to you dog [censored] smells like dog [censored], but that doesnt mean it is some inherent truth.

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I never said it was any sort of inherent truth. The implication of my argument was that it's inherent to the human condition that things which are bad for that condition's prosperity will be unpleasant to one of our senses.

How else does animal life evolve?

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Ever smell a "foreigner", that smelled horrible to you, do you think they smell themselves? do you think they smell bad? Ever been to africa? your cologne that you spent 100$ on smells terrible to them. It isnt completely cultural, but to say that "there are no cultural influences on what people think is beautiful" is completely ridiculous.

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Did I actually say that group of words you took the liberty to toss quotes around? You're putting ideas in my mouth and debating a position I don't hold.

I think there are certainly some cultural influences on what we find pleasant, such as the ones you mention. But (like I said in my post) I consider them superficial when compared to the vast array of all that we observe. How many humans enjoy the site of blood or the smell of people getting run over by a train? Maybe homicide detectives can get used to it, but they still have the natural predisposition to find such things unpleasant.

If one person's attributes were counter intuitive to human prosperity, how would he ever become beautiful?

Different lifestyles result in us being slightly different shapes and strengths too. There might be a bit of a difference between someone who lives in the dessert and someone who lives in a first world nation who goes to a gym every day. And I wouldn't deny that there are some very real, observable differences (obviously there are). But the fact that we can slightly alter the way we look based on our life experiences doesn't change the fact that our physical condition is still fundamentally a function of biological implications. Whether or not you have a 6-pack is pretty superficial compared to whether or not you have wings, a tail, 30 legs, or whatever. So I wouldn't say that our physical appearance is largely cultural when really that is a very superficial aspect.

The dog [censored] thing may have been a bad example and I didn't really mean it or the Lindsay Lohan thing literally. My point is just that our capacity to find certain things pleasant or unpleasant, beautiful or ugly, is ultimately based on whatever factors evolved us. I don't see how it could be any other way or what your disagreement is, since all you seem to be disagreeing with is a position I don't hold.

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do you find fat chicks hot? well they did in the 1700s.

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If the human being I think of as "me" existed in the 1700s, then I would probably find fat chics hot since that's what I'd be exposed to. The difference between a 21st century "hot" female human and an 18th century slightly overweight overweight female human is pretty superficial by truly objective standards. Trial and error. People were also much more likely to be hungry in the 18th century. Restraint and delay of immediate gratification become more valuable attributes as society progresses.

[ALawPoker]

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This is [censored]. Lindsay Lohan is relatively unattractive by most standards. As fury mentioned, fat chicks are normally considered hotter than skinny chicks. Personally, I can't imagine this being the case (and I doubt most of us in the modern world can), so it's clear that culture does have a significant impact.

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It was a quasi joke. Obviously I don't think whatever celebrity name I toss out there is one that everyone will find beautiful.

"Culture" is an intangible entity. Differing life experiences and exposures will impact the way we perceive things, sure. If I grew up in Pakistan I'd probably have a different taste in food than I have now too. If I was raised by wolves I'd probably act a lot differently. But it doesn't change the fact that I was born with some natural predisposition to interpret things that are likely to be good for me as more pleasant than things that are less likely to be good for me. What exactly is your position, that at birth our capacity to enjoy the smell of dog [censored] is equal to our capacity to enjoy the smell of tulips?

If you want to consider "culture's" role as something significant then to you I guess it's significant. But I think you're overlooking how very similar our biological tastes actually are. The difference between a fat chic and an athletic chic just seem like big deals because it's the entire spectrum that we know. But it is biology that makes it so we don't find chics with 3 noses attractive or even consider that option as a possible choice and reciprocally it is biology that makes it so humans with 3 noses do not exist.

We will always interpret objectively negligible differences as critical. I would say that's a prerequisite to being hardwired with a will to survive.

[onesandzeros]

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culture makes us all shallow, culture gives little girls eating disorders,

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The use of the words "makes" and "gives" in association with "culture" and negativity is quite incorrect. The following choices are a better fit for "makes" and "gives" (which is insane to believe): influences,programs,brainwashes, steers etc..)

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if it werent for culture we would all be 100% peaceful, living in tune with mother nature and alternating between giving each other backrubs and tantric sex.

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Now you got it! lol

[vhawk01]

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culture makes us all shallow, culture gives little girls eating disorders,

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The use of the words "makes" and "gives" in association with "culture" and negativity is quite incorrect. The following choices are a better fit for "makes" and "gives" (which is insane to believe): influences,programs,brainwashes, steers etc..)

[ QUOTE ]
if it werent for culture we would all be 100% peaceful, living in tune with mother nature and alternating between giving each other backrubs and tantric sex.

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Now you got it! lol

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Except its insane and backwards. Human nature influences culture much more than the other way around. We are not a "blank slate."