Play a hand against me and maximize your value

[KitCloudkicker]

OK for this hand I'm gonna try somethin new.

Situation: you've been playing at this table for 5 minutes with me. we know each other as solid 2+2ers. you have stats on me as a 30/20/2.2. I know you are a 28/18/1.9.

It's a 2/4 6 max game, 6 players. 1 tagfish limps, 1 LP fish limps, you limp the button with 55, I raise the SB. BB calls, fish call, you call.

Flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet. Others fold. You raise. I 3 bet.

Whats your plan?

[StrictlyStrategy]

Cap, raise the turn.

[Shillx]

Call & raise 4th

[Fnord]

Easy cap because you might still lead the turn.

[DeucesNeverLoses]

You're raising from SB, I think you can have AQs, AKs, TT+. I only think w/ this flop you 3-bet AQ/AKs/QQ+. If you have a set of Q's, it's a cooler, I still think I have the best hand. I j call your 3 bet and raise any non-heart turn. I think I get more value to raise turn when pot is bigger, because I could still have a hand like Q8s where any of your hands can improve on river. Does villain (aka I) have 5 of hearts (bdfd vs. QQQ helps out a LOT).

[Fnord]

Raising the turn is by far the worse option because a card might hit that kills our action and confronting him with 2 bets to showdown via an AMBUSH line might motivate him to make a good laydown.

Get the extra bet in while we're good and he likes his hand and hope to bump it one more time before showdown.

[jesse8888]

Cap the flop.
Bet or raise turn pretty much regardless of what falls.

If check/raised or 3-bet by you (you bahstahd) on the turn, I think I go into call down mode, also pretty much regardless of what comes off the deck. Unless it's the 5 of hearts, in which case I can't stop...cause they won't stop.

[StrictlyStrategy]

[ QUOTE ]
You're raising from SB, I think you can have AQs, AKs, TT+. I only think w/ this flop you 3-bet AQ/AKs/QQ+. If you have a set of Q's, it's a cooler, I still think I have the best hand. I j call your 3 bet and raise any non-heart turn. I think I get more value to raise turn when pot is bigger, because I could still have a hand like Q8s where any of your hands can improve on river. Does villain (aka I) have 5 of hearts (bdfd vs. QQQ helps out a LOT).

[/ QUOTE ]

He should be 3betting KQ here too, cuz there's no way we're limping AQ or KQ ourselves.

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn is by far the worse option because a card might hit that kills our action and confronting him with 2 bets to showdown via an AMBUSH line might motivate him to make a good laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain's range should squarely be QQ+/KQs/AQ/AKhh and QJs(discounted) when he 3bets. There are no scarecards on the turn that will prevent him from slowing down or paying off once we get to the turn. If he's folding any of that range on the turn, he's not calling down enough and we have lots of profitable semi-bluffs against him later.

It's somewhat close, but we can decide to pop the turn because:
1. We have position so villain will bet 95% of his turns.(He may chicken out on some 8s, though most 2p2ers wouldn't.)
2. Villain should pay off a large majority of the time. The only turns he shouldn't payoff are the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] when he has KQs/QJs and non-[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8s some of the time(though 8s should look like a scare card as well). In raising the flop, it is unlikely that we have a flush draw, so villain would be hard pressed to not pay us off in a large pot(11BBs by the time we pop the turn).
3. Capping the flop significantly decreases our chances to raise the turn. Villain is likely calling down AA/KK/AQ/KQ UI at that point.
4. There are no scare cards for us; we should be raising all heart turns because even if villain has AKhh, it makes up a small percentage of his range that we still need to raise for value. We also have a large number of outs against his range.
5. Raising the turn helps compliment your turn-semibluffs in a shania-esque fashion and provides other meta-game benefits including the point that villain will be more likely to not play back at you lightly.

Following the creed of always fastplaying your monsters is not a bad rule of thumb to follow, but you are missing value if you don't recognize which spots you can afford to pop turns with.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
5. Raising the turn helps compliment your turn-semibluffs in a shania-esque fashion and provides other meta-game benefits including the point that villain will be more likely to not play back at you lightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to call [censored] here. How often are you calling flop 3-bets intending to raise the turn as anything but a value play? Capping the flop is a much easier line to balance via draws and it provokes a turn lead to avoid giving a "free" card. Shania sez cap the flop because it's a much easier range to balance.