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  #1  
Old 11-02-2007, 04:24 PM
jkamowitz jkamowitz is offline
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Default A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

20/40 at borgata a while back.

I'm playing well running alright and listening to Michael Jackson.

Villian in this hand is a very tough post flop player. His opening standards are rather nitty though which means my pf 3-bet is thin (but that's besides the point cause I did it anyways.)

Villian open is HJ, I 3-bet A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] otb, he calls

Flop comes 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] he checks, I check.

Turn 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]: He checks, I check.

River A nonspade: he checks, I bet he check raises.

Yes yes all streets are up for debate (except preflop please)

FWIW, when I say his opening range is rather tight pf means QJo is a maybe for him, and K7s is a most likely no.

Also, the player in question doesn't stab light but loves to C/R bluff/valuebet in his words "what happens if I put in 80 instead of 40"
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  #2  
Old 11-02-2007, 04:36 PM
Dagger78 Dagger78 is offline
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Default Re: A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

Why the flop check?

Isn't he going to generally C/F two non ace overcards here(KJ, QJ types)

I hate the flop check just slightly more than the turn check. Which I also hate, but I think I can understand it a bit more.

On the river I think you got schooled, but you have to call.

I also don't mind the preflop 3 bet, provided you don't play it post flop like you did.
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  #3  
Old 11-02-2007, 04:42 PM
jkamowitz jkamowitz is offline
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Default Re: A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

I'll give my full reasonings later, but you're right in general. The flop check is bad. I messed up the post too so I have to fix it. One second.
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  #4  
Old 11-02-2007, 04:45 PM
Dagger78 Dagger78 is offline
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Default Re: A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

Alright, I'd really like an explanation on this one. This doesn't seem like this would be a standard line for you. I'm lost.
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  #5  
Old 11-02-2007, 04:55 PM
private joker private joker is offline
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Default Re: A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

Pre-preflop: Michael Jackson is a solid play. You could also raise Prince.

Preflop: Thin 3-bet considering your read, but whatever.

Flop: I would bet here. Not sure why you'd want to give him a free 6-out draw if you have him beat, or why you'd let him take over initiative with AJ/AQ.

The rest of the hand would play different if you bet the flop, but after he checks the flop and turn I think it's pretty obvious he doesn't have a PP. That means what -- well it means he has AJ/AQ/AK/KQ, right?

Given that, there's no value in a river bet. I might be results-oriented, but it seems like he'll fold every worse hand on the river, but he'll own you with a c/r every time he has AK/AQ.

You may say, "If he had a better ace, why did he check the river?" From his standpoint you 3-bet PF and checked two streets in a row, so you probably have nothing or a monster. A bet will only get a fold. So he checks to induce a bluff or a weird value bet from a badly played PP. He c/r for value with AQ/AK.

So you might consider checking the river to re-own him for trying to own you. But having bet it (and in the heat of the hand maybe I would too), you should call a c/r to make sure he isn't making a last-ditch effort to steal it.
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  #6  
Old 11-02-2007, 05:22 PM
jkamowitz jkamowitz is offline
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Default Re: A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

This was pretty much my thinking as well. After I bet the river I was like "hm that was pretty stupid."

He actually requested that I post this and discussed the flop, turn and river play.

Flop check is bad. I don't remember why I did it and therefore there is no good justification for it.

Turn check I think is better, he's never folding a pair, and he's tricky enough to c/r As/Ks there after I check the flop.

The river should be a check but you nailed it by saying "in the heat of the moment" I insta-bet he insta-raised and I instantly puked.
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  #7  
Old 11-02-2007, 07:42 PM
27offsooot 27offsooot is offline
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Default Re: A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

def. call river if knows of 2p2/ is a 2p2er (which i'm assuming since he asked u to post the hand). I would def bet flop, prob check behind turn, and bet-call river as played (but maybe checking is better).
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  #8  
Old 11-02-2007, 07:44 PM
DeuceKicker DeuceKicker is offline
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Default Re: A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is bad. I don't remember why I did it and therefore there is no good justification for it.

Turn check I think is better, he's never folding a pair, and he's tricky enough to c/r As/Ks there after I check the flop.

The river should be a check but you nailed it by saying "in the heat of the moment" I insta-bet he insta-raised and I instantly puked.

[/ QUOTE ]Not much more to say after this. You really screwed the pooch with the flop check, so there's probably not a lot of upside to betting the turn since you can't represent anything.

By tough post-flop, do you mean he's capable of putting in 2BB to win a 4.5BB pot with nothing? He needs to be FOS 15% of the time for your river call to break even, but I'm a card-carrying showdown monkey and even I doubt you're good that often.

In honor of the late great Nostrodumbass, I offer the following quatrain:

In the eleventh month of the seventh year
a trio of Fancy Plays, check-raising
a King and his Queen, two spades, no fear
Uh... or maybe he got there with Ace-King
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  #9  
Old 11-02-2007, 08:03 PM
elindauer elindauer is offline
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Default Re: A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

Against tough players, you'd do well to think about your hand range on the river instead of the actual hand. What's your range?

I'd guess that you would never check an overpair twice. That leaves ace-high hands that now hold top pair, and, perhaps, bluffs like KQ or KJs.

Now, if you would also never check king-high twice (which I would expect), then that means that the hand you hold is in fact the very worst holding you could possibly have.

Given that, and the tough nature of your opponent, you should fold. He's probably good enough to recognize that your hand range is all 1-pair of aces type hands.


If you call, then you are saying that you have a read that he is bluff check-raising too much, given the pot size. Is he? Well, you did say that he can bluff-raise, but bluff check-raise? Too much? I don't have enough information to offer an exploitable play yet. So fold.

good luck.
Eric
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  #10  
Old 11-02-2007, 08:45 PM
SNOWBALL SNOWBALL is offline
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Default Re: A tough one (for PJ even though he\'ll probably hate it)

[ QUOTE ]

Pre-preflop: Michael Jackson is a solid play. You could also raise Prince.


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I got a lion in my pocket and baby he's ready to roar

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Thin 3-bet considering your read, but whatever.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have a minor peeve with this comment. The 3 bet is -ev here, not thin. I constantly hear "oh it's close" or "oh it's thin" and it's really just mincing words and is conducive to the kind of slippery thinking that leads to FPS and other kinds of spewy silliness. I know we have some pride in our games, but this is FULL RING limit hold em guys. Blah blah chow meow play is often best, and when it isn't, it's never far from wrong.
The only way this PF is close or good (given OP's read) is if hero thinks that villain thinks that hero thinks that villain is playing tight, and will therefore give hero credit for a monster and play fit or fold on the flop.

Also, as others noted, villain plays well postflop, and unless hero thinks he has a good edge on villain, this PF is just bad bad bad.

Of course, I may be misinterpretting what is meant by "nitty." Nitty for this game may in fact be somewhat wide by my own standards.
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