Andy B actually lays down a hand--$30/60 stud/8

Andy B · #1 10-13-2007, 11:15 AM

$30/60 stud/8 was a hot game at Canterbury Park in 2002 and predictably died out. It resurfaced during the 2004 Fall Classic and was a weekly game for a while after that, petering out in early 2005. Since then, it's only gone during the Fall Classic, and sporadically at that. Yesterday was the first day of this year's Fall Classic, and when I showed up at about 4:30, the game had been going for an hour or so. A lot of people come from out of town for the Fall Classic, but absolutely everybody who played in yesterday's stud/8 game was local. Why it never runs during the rest of the year is a bit of a mystery.

Anyway, the game's a little tighter than I like it, but there are a couple of loose, bad players who keep me interested. The game has a $5 ante. Low card on my right brings it in for $10, I make it $30 with split Queens, and I get called by the two live ones. One is showing a baby and the other has a Nine. On fourth, I catch a Queen and bet with both opponents calling. On fifth, the Nine makes open Kings and bets:

Player 1: 9KK
Andy B: (Q8)QQ7
Player 2: 234

I may not have the right order for Player 2. Sorry I don't remember suits for either, but I think both boards were rainbow. Player 1 is in no way prevented from having trip Kings, but he could have a lot of other things as well. Player 2's range is really broad. Player 1 bets, I call, Player 2 raises, and we both call.

On sixth KK catches a Six and bets. I look at 2346 behind me and fold. Comments?

RustyBrooks · #2 10-13-2007, 11:26 AM

What was your card on 6th? You have up to 9 outs to a full house and 1 for quads for half the pot. The way I figure it, $90 or $100 goes in on 3rd, then $90 more on 4th, then $360 on 5th. SO when KK bets on 6th there is $600 in the pot of which you can lay claim to $300 if you win, so the pot is laying you 5:1 and you're a little worse than 2.5:1 to improve (9 outs, 30 cards unknown). You don't think queens full will win half the pot 1/2 the time?

RustyBrooks · #3 10-13-2007, 11:29 AM

I guess the problem is that you'll have to expect the low hand to raise there, he'd be an idiot not to unless he does not in fact have a low, and the KK might re-raising, cutting your odds to crap. That would be a tough situation, but maybe consider folding if it's 2 back to you? At that point you'd still be getting 3.25:1 to call which is fine if Qs full will be good most of the time and/or you think QQQ might be good for the high right now.

Andy B · #4 10-13-2007, 11:39 AM

I think I should have called the $60 and folded if it was raised and re-raised.

RustyBrooks · #5 10-13-2007, 12:26 PM

Well, you know the stakes I play, and stud/8 isn't my game, but I do have some experience with split pot games, so I know that anyone half decent, or anyone who gives a lot of action, is going to raise 6th showing 2346. Either he's got a made low, or a mediocre high hand like 2 pair and a draw to a low (and yeah, I thought about it, I'm pretty sure he can have 2 pair and a low draw here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). So calling there definitely means calling one more bet, and I think *that's* ok, but yeah, calling 2 more when the low board can (and probably will) cap behind you... I guess I'd have to fold there.

I don't think it's an awful to fold for 1bb there though. I just don't think I could make it.

Alchemist · #6 10-13-2007, 01:44 PM

How familiar is the guy with Kings with your game? Your hand should be very obvious I would think, with Aces up at worst. Surely his bet on 6th says he can beat a straight right? I can't see you not getting jammed in on 6th. Myself, I like laying it down at the first bet as opposed to calling and watching come back $120 to you.

I wonder if there's merit to raising 5th and make KK define his hand there?

warrantofice · #7 10-13-2007, 02:21 PM

Could KK have only 2 pair here? I think thats more likely than a set of kings. You are showing Queens up so he could very well be trying to protect his two pair. I think you gotta call the pot has gotten far to large to quit here.
The one thing thats really holding be back is the low draw, i'm really affraid of him having the straight in this spot, if i was going to fold this hand, that would be my reason for doing it. I would be worried about getting scooped. The kings aren't really that scary to me.

Phat Mack · #8 10-13-2007, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, the game's a little tighter than I like it, but there are a couple of loose, bad players who keep me interested. The game has a $5 ante. Low card on my right brings it in for $10, I make it $30 with split Queens, and I get called by the two live ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. From your description of the game, I'm not sure if I want to play split queens. If I get called by good players, I'm dead money; if I get called by the live ones, I'll never be sure where I'm at.

[ QUOTE ]
One is showing a baby and the other has a Nine. On fourth, I catch a Queen and bet with both opponents calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I've made queens a bunch; I am against two live ones; I am now officially married to this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
On sixth KK catches a Six and bets. I look at 2346 behind me and fold. Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I don't like it at all, but I still can't fold. Playing split queens was cute. Folding here was cute. Don't play cute. You may well have been beat, but against two live ones I have to ride it down.

jmo

adanthar · #9 10-13-2007, 02:25 PM

something like 9.5 BB in the pot so far, right?

it's gonna take about 3 more to possibly win half of an 18 BB-ish pot, unless you dodge the other guy's straight/outs but get scooped by the KK clownfish anyway

good fold

Phat Mack · #10 10-13-2007, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So calling there definitely means calling one more bet, and I think *that's* ok, but yeah, calling 2 more when the low board can (and probably will) cap behind you... I guess I'd have to fold there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi-lo games are games of ad hoc collusion. The high hand and the low hand try to identify each other and whipsaw the field. If I have the high hand, and another high hand is doing the whipsawing, that's just as good as doing it myself. It is only important that the pot be built, not who's doing it. So I don't think that being caught in the middle here is necessarily a bad thing.

The question is, of course, is Andy beat. I'd be more worried about the 6-high straight than the KK. But of course, I still have outs against a straight. Another question in my mind is whether KK knows that Andy has QQQ--is there another hand he can put him on, or is he even thinking about what Andy might have.